Article: FAA won't back 1500 hour requirement

[drunkenbeagle]

Until VERY recently this wasn't a big deal because nobody in their right mind would put a guy with only 250 hours in a jet airliner. However, when the airlines realized that they could get away with it, and they would not have to pay pilots what they were worth, they did exactly that. The only screening or standards were "Can this guy pass the SIC checkride?".

As someone who is at that minimum experience level, I can tell you that I absolutely do not belong sitting right seat at an airline job. To give you an idea how little experience 250 hours is, I've flown maybe 60 approaches, only 2 of them PIC to minimums. The scary thing? It is a good thing I never wanted to be an airline pilot, since 2 years ago a regional probably would have hired someone with not much more experience than me.

I agree, it wasn't a big deal until recently. When I got my PPL 10 years ago, 2000+ TT was a bare minimum to get hired anywhere, and there weren't nearly as many RJ's then either. But does anyone honestly believe when demand for pilots (willing to work for $25K) heats up again, that people with a wet commercial multi won't start getting hired? Me either.

As for the dead horse of comparing military to civilian flying, I went through the military selection process. It is absolutely nothing like getting a C-MEL. It is like comparing apples to hand grenades.
e who is at
"But the airlines in Europe do this!" Yes, but the JAA is a lot more involved, the airlines there spend more on training, they are far more selective academically, and they often use something like a "training bond" to lock you in to working there for many years to protect their training investment.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Lets all build soapbox racers (Im dating myself) shaped like planes, and we'll just see whos better mister:rotfl:I have the landspeed cardboard plane record at M .0072 downhill

Hey you aren't dating yourself too much. I raced just a few short years ago (2002), and am the new race director for the local race up here. The national group has gone downhill fast (har! har!) there is a good chance that this year will be the last year with a national race in Akron. Major money issues etc.


PS. I bet my car is faster

 

[3enginejock]

As for the dead horse of comparing military to civilian flying, I went through the military selection process. It is absolutely nothing like getting a C-MEL. It is like comparing apples to hand grenades.
e who is at
"But the airlines in Europe do this!" Yes, but the JAA is a lot more involved, the airlines there spend more on training, they are far more selective academically, and they often use something like a "training bond" to lock you in to working there for many years to protect their training investment.

I am not comparing civilian training to military. I am saying that making civilian training more like the military would improve things a lot more than a minimum hour rule to fly 121. The reason military pilots are ok to fly C5's and F18's is because the selection process and training is a quite a bit more difficult.

Civilian pilot training atleast here in the US is a bit of a joke. Before you take the written you can study books that have every possible question and the answers. Before you take a checkride you can look at a book that has everything the examiner can ask you in it and the examiner cannot ask you anything or ask you to do anything outside of that book. Passing a written is as easy as taking the practice test over and over until you have the questions and answers memorized. Students are trained to pass checkrides not to fly. And this is the reason we have so many pilots, because anyone with half of a brain can become a commercial pilot. Things start to get a bit more challenging AFTER that but getting to that point is easy.

 

[Socal321]

I don't think training is a joke here compared to the JAA or whever. I would rather spend 5 hours in the air and 1 in classrom vs 10 hours in class vs .5 in the air. That's why people all over the world come here to get their rating. The FAA does promote becoming a pilot more so than other organizations around the world, but that is because flying and being able to fly is much easier here. There is an airport every 5 miles gas is cheaper. You can't say the same other parts of the world so of course the training will be more demanding. Also now the industry doesn't have to worry about pilots like us that got in with low time the last few years, now it's about high mins, 5 years later we will be back down to commercial mins. It's all about supply and demand.

 

[Socal321]

As someone who is at that minimum experience level, I can tell you that I absolutely do not belong sitting right seat at an airline job. To give you an idea how little experience 250 hours is, I've flown maybe 60 approaches, only 2 of them PIC to minimums. The scary thing? It is a good thing I never wanted to be an airline pilot, since 2 years ago a regional probably would have hired someone with not much more experience than me.

People have been starting their careers at 250 hours for decades. Some of them are flying big heavy jets right now. Just because you do not feel ready, does not mean it's the same for others. If you're not ready the training will eliminate you anyways.

 

[zmiller4]

If you're not ready the training will eliminate you anyways.

Not true at all. For all the stuff you can do with it, flying a simulator is more like playing a computer game than like flying a plane. It tests how well you can memorize flows and checklists rather than your judgement and ability to tell a captain to cram it when (s)he wants to do something dumb. IOE shows whether you can demonstrate a basic ability to land the plane and do normal flows and such.

I think the real tests come when you get out on the line...and most captains now are hesitant to go to a pro standards committee or training department on an FO who they think is deficient, because hey, they've flown with other guys who haven't reported them. Then the 250-hr wonder FO's who suck become captains who suck, which is when I think the problems really start.

 

[TheOneMarine]

On a related note, any word from the FAA on the NPRM for duty and rest? Still slated for late January or has it been pushed back further?

 

[david2000]

People have been starting their careers at 250 hours for decades. Some of them are flying big heavy jets right now. Just because you do not feel ready, does not mean it's the same for others. If you're not ready the training will eliminate you anyways.

:yeahthat:

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

On a related note, any word from the FAA on the NPRM for duty and rest? Still slated for late January or has it been pushed back further?

They're still saying January. I doubt it gets pushed back anymore. Babbitt took a serious amount of heat from Congress for pushing it past the end of this year.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Just because you do not feel ready, does not mean it's the same for others. If you're not ready the training will eliminate you anyways.

I'm sure I would probably get through it, that's not really the point here. Being able to complete a training program and a flight check is not the same as actually knowing what you are doing. In particular when the organization training you has every incentive for you to complete it as quickly as possible.

Sure, I've got friends that started flying jets right seat at ~250 hours. When I've asked them, they have always said more or less the same thing "Yeah, that was pretty sketchy, didn't really have any clue what I was doing..."

 

[TheOneMarine]

They're still saying January. I doubt it gets pushed back anymore. Babbitt took a serious amount of heat from Congress for pushing it past the end of this year.

How long does it normally take for a NPRM like this to become rule? I was looking at the one from the 90's that seemed to have died in 2002. Would hate for that to happen again.

 

[3enginejock]

I don't think training is a joke here compared to the JAA or whever. I would rather spend 5 hours in the air and 1 in classrom vs 10 hours in class vs .5 in the air. That's why people all over the world come here to get their rating. The FAA does promote becoming a pilot more so than other organizations around the world, but that is because flying and being able to fly is much easier here. There is an airport every 5 miles gas is cheaper. You can't say the same other parts of the world so of course the training will be more demanding. Also now the industry doesn't have to worry about pilots like us that got in with low time the last few years, now it's about high mins, 5 years later we will be back down to commercial mins. It's all about supply and demand.

The main reason people come here to get their ratings isnt because the training is better. Its because its 10 times easier and faster than other countries. Now I dont think JAA training is better but there is a reason pilots are paid more in other countries, there are less of them and its due to the difficulty in the training process.

 

[Socal321]

Not true at all.

Actually it is. I've seen many many examples. 4000 hours and 200 hours.

 

[Socal321]

Sure, I've got friends that started flying jets right seat at ~250 hours. When I've asked them, they have always said more or less the same thing "Yeah, that was pretty sketchy, didn't really have any clue what I was doing..."

No one usually does first day ever at the airlines... with 200 or 4000 hours. If you're saying they didn't know how to land an airplane then, I don't know what to tell you..........

 

[Socal321]

there are less of them and its due to the difficulty in the training process.

Well that but it's mostly because aviation is inaccessible to regular folks like it is here and there aren't too many airlines. Think Fedex and UPS. Comparing the US market for pilots and pay to the rest of the world is apples to oranges. That is something that will never happen here. Because that would require a complete culture change in the industry. No more bottom feeding. In other parts of the world, there aren't 10 different Lufthansas trying to compete for the same market like here. The contrary is happening as well abroad, more and more airlines are lowering their standards of pay.

 

[Socal321]

Then the 250-hr wonder FO's who suck become captains who suck, which is when I think the problems really start.

That's not specifically due to this issue. Every part of this business has "those" pilots. They are in the military, regionals, majors, pt135. Some people do fall through the cracks and make it to the 747. If you have an FO or CA that "sucks" it is your responsibility to report them since you are part of a crew.

 

[zmiller4]

Actually it is. I've seen many many examples. 4000 hours and 200 hours.

Examples of what? People failing out? Of course you've seen people fail. Your claim was that if you aren't prepared, you'll fail out--which is wrong.

We all know people who don't cut it in training...but your claim that the training process will cut out all unqualified pilots is simply incorrect. Everybody has seen people who really aren't prepared for an airline job that have made it through training, because there's a lot of things that training can't give or test for...like experience.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

No one usually does first day ever at the airlines... with 200 or 4000 hours. If you're saying they didn't know how to land an airplane then, I don't know what to tell you..........

It isn't the routine stuff I worry about. You get through training, you can land the plane. It is the out-of-the ordinary stuff is usually sprinkled throughout an accident chain I worry about. At 250 hours, you haven't really had to make a lot of big decisions in difficult situations.

My personal opinion is that the only way you are going to be prepared for those situations is the experience of dealing with IFE's and the like in the past as PIC. And the only way that is going to happen is flying.

 

[zmiller4]

It isn't the routine stuff I worry about. You get through training, you can land the plane. It is the out-of-the ordinary stuff is usually sprinkled throughout an accident chain I worry about. At 250 hours, you haven't really had to make a lot of big decisions in difficult situations.

:clap:

Well said.

 

[Socal321]

.

My personal opinion is that the only way you are going to be prepared for those situations is the experience of dealing with IFE's and the like in the past as PIC. And the only way that is going to happen is flying.

That is the beauty of pt121, there is no guess work. They can't afford it, since so many people's lives are at stake. You are trained as a crew, there is no I. You and the CA go through training to solve problems based on the airplanes QRH. I don't care how many good calls you've made in your 172, you follow procedures and accomplish what they train you on at the airline.