"The High Cost of Low Experience"

UPS just got crossed off my list of places to work. I'd like to live, thanks.

Well, you know that boxes don't usually have insurance policies on them.

Considering the way he talks, it seems he doesn't really care much about his customers' products - to the point that he'll call another pilot a wimp for not dispatching into weather they're not comfortable with - or more importantly - that is a factor that can decrease flight safety.
 
What happens when the captain ends up being a wimp and not going. How are you ever going to learn if you would have made it?


Depending on the circumstances, I most likely would say on behalf of the passengers (or cargo), crew and myself, thank you for being safe, and back his/her decision up when the time comes for the carpet dance.
 
For some reason this reminds of a time when a Fedex pilot was arguing with clearance at 2 in the morning. Because I SAID SO KiD!
 
We can bring sexy back to the profession. If I didn't think we could, I certainly wouldn't be blowing 90% of my free time running an internet website.

I'm not sure that "bringing sexy back" to the profession is (or should be) the goal. Being a professional pilot will always intrigue certain personality types. Big machines, lots of power, speed, seeing the open road, being your own boss, yadda, yadda... built in sex appeal.

The sex appeal, however, is one of the catalysts that results in the lowering of the bar. Up and coming aviators who are chomping at the bit to go as quickly as possible from the right seat of a Cessna 152 to the right seat of a EMB170 will always be willing to do the job for less. Worse, some pilots of CRJs and ERJs will seek larger aircraft (E170/190 etc) in order to satisfy their desire for the sex appeal of the larger aircraft. Don't think it's true? Look at the EMB pilots with the "Guppy Killer" stickers, or the CRJ900 pilots telling people they "flew the 9".

The sex appeal is there.

Our focus should be more pragmatic. If we didn't fly airplanes... if we made widgets. And this was widgetcareers.com (no pun intended there Doug) the focus might be on telling up and coming widget builders the truth about the profession and helping to manage their expectations.

It's important that people who are on the fast-track to the flight deck have their expectations managed as well. They should be reminded that although this job is fun -- fun doesn't pay the bills. Sexy doesn't get you home for your kid's little league game. Accepting flying at the expense of your peers is damaging to the profession. Accepting flying at rates substantially lower than industry average destroys the integrity of the profession. Remind them that although they may be young and single today, at some point their goals will shift. They will want a home and a family... and want to spend as much time as possible with both.

So -- and this is just my opinion -- threads such as "which is better the CRJ or the ERJ" are useless. They emphasize the sexy without adequate consideration for what really matters. I like JC (most of the time) because it isn't filled only with next-gen aviators -- but there is some balance from pilots who have been there/ done that who can sprinkle a dose of reality on each conversation. Is it always positive? No. But it is necessary. There's no point in pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. This isn't the profession it was pre-9/11. Being honest won't make it less sexy... but it will make our fellow JC-ers better prepared for what is to come.

On topic I hope that A300 was not implying that the pilot in question should test his or her limits to see "if he could have made it". He's smart enough to know that tangling with ice (or other hazards) in aircraft that are not equipped to do so doesn't prove anything. The age of the cowboy aviator have long passed. There is no prize for hand-flying the aircraft John Wayne style into the perilous night. Today the flight crew that manages the aircraft and the technology to complete the flight as safely and efficiently as possible is the model we should all emulate.

Just my opinion.
 
I'm not sure that "bringing sexy back" to the profession is (or should be) the goal. Being a professional pilot will always intrigue certain personality types. Big machines, lots of power, speed, seeing the open road, being your own boss, yadda, yadda... built in sex appeal.

The sex appeal, however, is one of the catalysts that results in the lowering of the bar. Up and coming aviators who are chomping at the bit to go as quickly as possible from the right seat of a Cessna 152 to the right seat of a EMB170 will always be willing to do the job for less. Worse, some pilots of CRJs and ERJs will seek larger aircraft (E170/190 etc) in order to satisfy their desire for the sex appeal of the larger aircraft. Don't think it's true? Look at the EMB pilots with the "Guppy Killer" stickers, or the CRJ900 pilots telling people they "flew the 9".

The sex appeal is there.

Our focus should be more pragmatic. If we didn't fly airplanes... if we made widgets. And this was widgetcareers.com (no pun intended there Doug) the focus might be on telling up and coming widget builders the truth about the profession and helping to manage their expectations.

It's important that people who are on the fast-track to the flight deck have their expectations managed as well. They should be reminded that although this job is fun -- fun doesn't pay the bills. Sexy doesn't get you home for your kid's little league game. Accepting flying at the expense of your peers is damaging to the profession. Accepting flying at rates substantially lower than industry average destroys the integrity of the profession. Remind them that although they may be young and single today, at some point their goals will shift. They will want a home and a family... and want to spend as much time as possible with both.

So -- and this is just my opinion -- threads such as "which is better the CRJ or the ERJ" are useless. They emphasize the sexy without adequate consideration for what really matters. I like JC (most of the time) because it isn't filled only with next-gen aviators -- but there is some balance from pilots who have been there/ done that who can sprinkle a dose of reality on each conversation. Is it always positive? No. But it is necessary. There's no point in pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. This isn't the profession it was pre-9/11. Being honest won't make it less sexy... but it will make our fellow JC-ers better prepared for what is to come.

On topic I hope that A300 was not implying that the pilot in question should test his or her limits to see "if he could have made it". He's smart enough to know that tangling with ice (or other hazards) in aircraft that are not equipped to do so doesn't prove anything. The age of the cowboy aviator have long passed. There is no prize for hand-flying the aircraft John Wayne style into the perilous night. Today the flight crew that manages the aircraft and the technology to complete the flight as safely and efficiently as possible is the model we should all emulate.

Just my opinion.


I think Doug was using the term "sexy" in jest, referencing raising the bar to where the profession belongs. I agree with you, and would add that, along with experienced pilots offering EXCELLENT advice, there are also newer guys willing to listen on JC. In addition, not only do we have experienced pilots on here, we have experienced pilots that treat the new generation with respect. Nothing alienates me more than condescension, and the vast majority of salty vets on here treat new guys very well.

J.
 
Yeah, whatever, as soon as you fly a pressurized plane (that's not centerline thrust), we'll listen. ;)

...how's your Hillbilly Indoc going in Alabama?

Uggggh. When the Waffle House is considered "fine dining", you know you're in for a treat. :D
 
It's MikeD...way too much time 1) breathing from a mask followed by 2) getting his grey matter shaken by a whirly bird

Yes! Am definitely scrambled up in the old noggin now.

Thats why Doug keeps me employed here....:D
 
The best way to get started is getting everyone rowing in the same direction. That starts with those that have helping those that want.

I'm happy to help those that are willing to listen. Do you earnestly think that everyone is prepared to listen? Just flinging poop on everyone less experienced/less lucky/less whatever is futile and lame. But suggesting that ridicule and "being mean" has no place is, imho, also incorrect.

Think of some of the aforementioned d-bags you've run across IRL with their GuppyKiller stickers and reversed epaulettes. Now think of the unbelievable things you've heard them say. As in literally unbelievable, so unbelievable you're certain you misheard them. Do you seriously think they're going to respond to "hey, that's not very far-sighted of you, young man..."? They need to be shunned and ridiculed, Office style, as an example to the rest. When they are sobbing while watching "Top Gun" in their two bedroom ten pilot ghetto crashpad is the time to offer a helpful word of advice, not when they're explaining to you the intricacies of your job and how you're doing it wrong. You need a carrot AND a stick. Wisdom is the carrot...merciless, inflated-sense-of-self-esteem-shattering, deadly accurate ridicule is the stick. Tough Love, gentlemen.

PS. I refuse to treat as a sentient human being worthy of breathing my air anyone who has ever had an earnest discussion about the relative aesthetic merits of the ERJ and CRJ. For example.
 
I'm happy to help those that are willing to listen. Do you earnestly think that everyone is prepared to listen? Just flinging poop on everyone less experienced/less lucky/less whatever is futile and lame. But suggesting that ridicule and "being mean" has no place is, imho, also incorrect.

I think you know where I was going. You're a real smart guy, and one that I respect. We've had our debates, and while there are times we don't necessarily agree, we come to an understanding if nothing else, in a civil manner regardless of the "heat" of the debate.

..and you also know the answer to the question proposed about those being prepared (even willing) to listen. It is as frustrating to me as it is anyone else. However, I've had enough people listen in the real world, even when I was way off base.

One thing I've learned, merely because I have in my mind that following convention is for sheep and lemmings, is that no matter how hard I try, there are universal truths in attracting flies with sugar versus vinegar. There is a time for pointed sarcasm; overwhelming a populist attitude with a preponderance of facts, evidence and logic; and "tough love", "straight talk", "No BS", or what ever it may be called. Just like the many words of English, each one has it's place and time to be used. Or, to use a tired metaphor, "Come at it from a different angle".

Think of some of the aforementioned d-bags you've run across IRL with their GuppyKiller stickers and reversed epaulettes. Now think of the unbelievable things you've heard them say. As in literally unbelievable, so unbelievable you're certain you misheard them. Do you seriously think they're going to respond to "hey, that's not very far-sighted of you, young man..."? They need to be shunned and ridiculed, Office style, as an example to the rest. When they are sobbing while watching "Top Gun" in their two bedroom ten pilot ghetto crashpad is the time to offer a helpful word of advice, not when they're explaining to you the intricacies of your job and how you're doing it wrong. You need a carrot AND a stick. Wisdom is the carrot...merciless, inflated-sense-of-self-esteem-shattering, deadly accurate ridicule is the stick.

The thing is, it's not just the FNGs in the industry. There are failures of common sense at all levels. Just like the 30+ year United Captain that thought he didn't have to check in with me to Jumpseat since I was commuter scum. The SCOPE and NO RJ badges and stickers on flight cases when people wanted a ride on my plane. Guys on my jumpseat telling me that they "hope to get my work rules and pay where they need to be" when in fact I was making more and had better work rules than the junior pilots at his establishment.

But beating on people and ridiculing them will merely alienate them. Just look at how line pilots view management.
 
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