tilley_205
Well-Known Member
Not sure if this is the most appropriate forum to place this question, but what is the proper way to request and execute an overhead break?
Overhead Break
- Thread starter tilley_205
- Start date
ghogue
Well-Known Member
Here's what the P/CG has on it.
OVERHEAD MANEUVER- A series of predetermined maneuvers prescribed for aircraft (often in formation) for entry into the visual flight rules (VFR) traffic pattern and to proceed to a landing. An overhead maneuver is not an instrument flight rules (IFR) approach procedure. An aircraft executing an overhead maneuver is considered VFR and the IFR flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the "initial point" on the initial approach portion of the maneuver. The pattern usually specifies the following:
a. The radio contact required of the pilot.
b. The speed to be maintained.
c. An initial approach 3 to 5 miles in length.
d. An elliptical pattern consisting of two 180 degree turns.
e. A break point at which the first 180 degree turn is started.
f. The direction of turns.
g. Altitude (at least 500 feet above the conventional pattern).
h. A "Roll-out" on final approach not less than 1/4 mile from the landing threshold and not less than 300 feet above the ground.
gary
OVERHEAD MANEUVER- A series of predetermined maneuvers prescribed for aircraft (often in formation) for entry into the visual flight rules (VFR) traffic pattern and to proceed to a landing. An overhead maneuver is not an instrument flight rules (IFR) approach procedure. An aircraft executing an overhead maneuver is considered VFR and the IFR flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the "initial point" on the initial approach portion of the maneuver. The pattern usually specifies the following:
a. The radio contact required of the pilot.
b. The speed to be maintained.
c. An initial approach 3 to 5 miles in length.
d. An elliptical pattern consisting of two 180 degree turns.
e. A break point at which the first 180 degree turn is started.
f. The direction of turns.
g. Altitude (at least 500 feet above the conventional pattern).
h. A "Roll-out" on final approach not less than 1/4 mile from the landing threshold and not less than 300 feet above the ground.
gary
csmith_txatc
Well-Known Member
We work a lot of overhead entries at MAF due to the amount of military training being done there. Most of the time the pilots request to enter "the initial". Some pilots will request just to enter the overhead. We vector for a visual approach and then clear them for the visual approach when they call the field in sight and instruct them to enter a 5 mile initial (per our local SOP). The tower controller usually calls the direction of the break and where to start the break to fit in with their traffic. When there is no other traffic, the pilot usually gets a "break your discretion."
///AMG
Well-Known Member
When I was younger and flying with my dad, he used to do it in his Bonanza at uncontrolled fields that weren't real busy. That said, I would probably not do it in a civilian aircraft. Really doesn't accomplish much and likely confuses the crap out of other traffic who don't know where to look. Normally jets fly a higher traffic pattern at civilian fields which kind of deconflicts the airspace for safety, which you wouldn't have at a normal pattern altitude.
The way we execute is a 5 mile initial (which you report to tower) at 250 indicated, then you push the nose over, power up, switch of the transponder, and accel to break speed (350 IAS or so). Tower will normally have you report numbers for the break (approach end numbers), and once you make that call they will clear you to break in pattern direction or specify when to do it (normally a "your interval is xx oclock"). You need to have an idea of how much you will be overtaking downwind traffic by on rollout. We normally do an idle break with speedbrakes, pulling about a G for ever 100 kts and playing it out to a 1 mile abeam. Ideally you should be in landing configuration and on speed (or your approach speed) once you get to the abeam/180 position. Call for your landing clearance, and execute a circling approach turn to roll out on final.....no base or square turns. Pick up the VASI/PAPI (at civilian fields) and fly it to touchdown. Break later for higher airspeed breaks as you will need more time to bleed down airspeed. Having never done it in a civilian aircraft I can't really comment on technique there, but this is essentially what the tower is expecting you to do.
To add:
Overhead maneuver is the standard pattern at military fields for jet aircraft. It's a quick way to enter the pattern and land, while still keeping the speeds up to a manageable level when not configured. 45 entry to a square pattern doesn't work for swept wing jets very well; 117 hated being slow, especially when clean since it has no lifting devices, as do most swept wings when compared to straight wings. Mil fields also have two patterns: an inside downwind and an outside downwind. Pattern for the overhead is normally 1500 or 2000 AGL, vice the 1000 standard for the square pattern; but can be up to 3000 AGL. The inside downwind, or closed pattern, is the pattern that's entered after the break from initial and when preparing to make the 180 to final to land. The outside downwind is for pattern spacing and to set up for a straight-in following a a touch and go or low approach, or to come back around and re-enter intital without affecting the inside downwind.
As a sidenote, if IFR, you're automatically cancelled when you're cleared for initial and change to tower. I use the overhead maneuver in civil planes as standard at civil fields as a way to expedite landing from altitude if I don't think it'll cause any sort of traffic conflict, otherwise I go with the rest of the flow. Tower generally has no problem clearing it if at a controlled field, and if at an uncontrolled field, if traffic permits, I'll do the same.
Sunburn
Well-Known Member
At SCK, I will normally call the direction and break point, because of traffic. Normally it goes like this,
Roper 11 "Stockton Tower, Roper 11, inbound, request initial/overhead"
Tower : "Roper 11, Stockton Tower, (right/left) turns, pattern altitude one thousand, five hundred, report (3-5) mile initial"
Roper 11: "Roper 11, initial"
Tower : "Roper 11, Break (approach end, midfield, departure end, your discretion report break, [or, "I'll call your break"]"
After the break, I clear them for want they want to do, either option or to land.
note: I normally only call the break when I need to shove the guy between to planes (i.e.) fighters with other turboprops/jets in the pattern, or it is a cargo plane. I love the sight of a C-17 doing the overhead.
Roper 11 "Stockton Tower, Roper 11, inbound, request initial/overhead"
Tower : "Roper 11, Stockton Tower, (right/left) turns, pattern altitude one thousand, five hundred, report (3-5) mile initial"
Roper 11: "Roper 11, initial"
Tower : "Roper 11, Break (approach end, midfield, departure end, your discretion report break, [or, "I'll call your break"]"
After the break, I clear them for want they want to do, either option or to land.
note: I normally only call the break when I need to shove the guy between to planes (i.e.) fighters with other turboprops/jets in the pattern, or it is a cargo plane. I love the sight of a C-17 doing the overhead.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
This is a typical exchange most everywhere I've done it (sts).
Fortunately I've never had a tower controller say "what?" in reply to my request for initial!
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
I'll do it from time to time on engine breakin or other maintenance flights, it limits your exposure to an engine failure.
I'm a scat man.
I'm a scat man.
Formations flying initial for the overhead come in two flavors:
1. "standard" initial......formation in close positioning, ie- on the wing. Normal looking formation. At the break, the leader breaks, with each wingman taking X seconds spacing; so to allow spacing on downwind. Or for USN/USMC aircraft, they "fan break", where both or more planes break at the same time, with the succeding planes other than the leader not pulling as much G (ie- bigger turn radius) so as to simultaneously end up on down wind with automatic spacing.
2. "tactical" initial, or tac initial. Normally line formation (line abreast) with 6000 ft separation between aircraft. At the break, both planes initiate the turn, with the leader making a 180 to the downind, and the wingman making a 90 degree turn, crossing the runway perpendicularly to the downwind, then making another 90 degree turn in order to roll out on downwind behind the leader. Tac initial takes some SA to do correctly, since you don't just end up in that formation, you would have been traveling in line formation, with the respective delayed 45 / 90 turns to work the formation into the pattern, and eventually up the ground track for initial. If the positioning isn't accomplished correctly, the formation ends up coming up initial with the wingman in the break-direction side of the formation (ie- breaking first)....the side of the formation the lead is supposed to be on. This necessitates a shackle (side-side swap) which only shows it was poorly planned, since any formation repositioning should've been accomplished before the formation enters the pattern for maneuvering to initial.......fixing it in the pattern shows late planning and is poor form, if there wasn't extenuating circumstances such as a runway change, etc.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Must be a crazy AF thing
....if I'm not mistaken, your inside downwind is analogous to our standard traffic pattern (at least so my Vance friends have told me). We do 900' AGL "Carrier break" with 600' AGL on downwind. Also USN controllers don't use the closed traffic phraseology that every other controller in the world uses, for whatever reason. Interesting to see the differences between services. I also have never heard of the Tac initial you described, though I have seen a couple fan breaks (not permitted in orange and white trainer land unfortunately).
Fan breaks seem standard for the USN. But then again, you guys fly patterns gear down
(actually, probably more efficient).Yeah, the standard carrier break I've heard is 800/600 AGL, but seems the same as you describe. Another USN funny I saw is this: At DMA, the runway is 13,600'. A-6E Intruder enters the pattern and breaks, approaching the 180...begins the final turn, and proceeds to plant it on brick-one of the runway, plopping it down carrier-style. Probably habit or to keep with training, but I was half expecting some semblance of a flare and smooth touchdown, seeing as to the runway length. Just found that funny.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Fan breaks seem standard for the USN. But then again, you guys fly patterns gear down
Yeah, the standard carrier break I've heard is 800/600 AGL, but seems the same as you describe. Another USN funny I saw is this: At DMA, the runway is 13,600'. A-6E Intruder enters the pattern and breaks, approaching the 180...begins the final turn, and proceeds to plant it on brick-one of the runway, plopping it down carrier-style. Probably habit or to keep with training, but I was half expecting some semblance of a flare and smooth touchdown, seeing as to the runway length. Just found that funny.
Don't waste a single inch!
BTW, thanks for that stuff about Tac initial, I was always curious, but never thought to ask on here.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Fan breaks seem standard for the USN. But then again, you guys fly patterns gear down
Yeah, the standard carrier break I've heard is 800/600 AGL, but seems the same as you describe. Another USN funny I saw is this: At DMA, the runway is 13,600'. A-6E Intruder enters the pattern and breaks, approaching the 180...begins the final turn, and proceeds to plant it on brick-one of the runway, plopping it down carrier-style. Probably habit or to keep with training, but I was half expecting some semblance of a flare and smooth touchdown, seeing as to the runway length. Just found that funny.
Haha nice. Yeah I bet just habit pattern....I haven't flared a landing (with the exception of practice precautionary approaches) for quite some time now. I've also seen carrier style touchdown followed by air braking all the way down the remaining runway (for those who aren't familiar, looks like the jet is doing a wheelie) at the field.....I guess pretty much just from Prowler dudes, maybe that is standard for them for brake wear or something.
Sunburn
Well-Known Member
You need to come to SCK and what for a young female voice to come on the radio, I promise you if you don't get a what over the freq, there will be at least one in the tower from her. Training is awesome, then again I had a four layered downwind the other day, and had to give a flight of T38's a left midfield break, they literally buzzed the tower.
esa17
Well-Known Member
There is a Mustang pilot in JAX that does it nearly every landing. It's dang cool to see.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
^ Looked pretty decent for a cirrus. Overhead from the initial, offset a few hundred feet from the extended runway centerline, opposite the traffic pattern side so that you can keep the runway in sight the whole time. Also, you want a little more than 9 seconds "in the groove", ie straightaway time from the point you roll out on final until you are flaring. We look for 15-18 seconds in our jet, which allows you ample time to get to a good start on your approach and make glideslope corrections on the way down. I know it is a bit different (and less precise) flying a VASI/PAPI but the theory still applies. Other than that, your abeam looked good and you had a good consistent approach turn to final. 
braunpilot
What day is it?
[hijack]
I'll be honest. I halfway expected a topgun theme or some other chessey song. XM radio is nice but I thought Cirrus had the same cut off as cessna. guess not.
[/hijack]
I have done one overhead approach in a c172 with a c17 driver and it was fun. I wish that I had a pits or even better a corsair that would make the whole airport stop and watch. That would be awesome.
I'll be honest. I halfway expected a topgun theme or some other chessey song. XM radio is nice but I thought Cirrus had the same cut off as cessna. guess not.
[/hijack]
I have done one overhead approach in a c172 with a c17 driver and it was fun. I wish that I had a pits or even better a corsair that would make the whole airport stop and watch. That would be awesome.