Over 8 hours of flight instruction...

[Malko]

OK, here's how it goes: I'm the Fed:
Me: Let's see, from any 24-hour period...ok, let's look at the period from 6 am to 6 pm..ah, I see you flew 10 hours...you're busted.

You: Ah, but I am counting 5 of those hours from 6 to noon and 5 from noon to 6. (sly grin)

Me: You have the opportunity to surrender your certificate at this time, or wait for the Letter of Investigation and get legal counsel.(one-upman leer) Actually, the best legal way to handle this is simply stop instructing for a certificate or rating at the 8 hour mark. This first happened to me on a flight with a student heading back to the airport, when I realized we are going to go over the 8 hour mark, so I told the student I would not say any more to him and he would have to find his own way back, enter the pattern and land. Of course, I acted as safety pilot, but I did not log the time past my 8 hours in his log book as instruction. For a student pilot, this would be lost loggable time, but is the legal alternative.

Preaching to the choir.......:clap:

 

[wrxpilot]

It's not that hard to keep track of your time... I regularly butted up against (but not over) the 8 hour rule when I was teaching. You know if you're going to have a busy day, and I'm assuming you are keeping track of the hobbs time (why wouldn't you?), so what's the problem?

 

[Blackhawk]

I have not seen this come up with the Feds, but I have seen this come up at an airline interview after the person's log book is reviewed. Your chances of being hired if this is seen more than once... about zero.
This could also come up during an accident investigation and unless you also cook the aircraft logbooks you're toast as it is easy for the Feds to go back and check aircraft times. If you are close to your 8 hours I can almost guarantee they will.
Sorry, my certificates ain't worth an extra .2 of flight time not to mention that I do not see someone giving effective instruction for 8 hours in a day.
Now if you unintentionally go beyond 8 hours of flying due to operational delays I would go ahead and log it in your logbook and make some notes in the remarks section as to why you went over. I would not make this a regular thing, however. By operational delay, say your last flight is blocked at 1.5 bringing you to 7.8 for the day. Due to extra holding, ground delays, etc you actually log 2.0 putting you over your 8 hours. If, however, it is clear prior to engine start that your last flight will put you over 8 hours it's time to CXL.
BTW, if the Fed does discover logbook falsification or intentionally going beyond 8 hours on a regular basis you could be facing emergency revocation, not suspension. Is it really worth facing that over .2??

 

[Socal321]

So what is the correct action to take if you do go over. I was at 7.9 yesterday, so it just got me thinking.

Don't take the last flight. If you're coming back to your airport on a long xc and go over 8 then you can't do anything about it. Fudge the number?

 

[Douglas]

I don't think I've ever come close with regular lesson blocks.

QUOTE]


It's a whole lot of suck. I typically get cranky and cancel after 7.0 which = 16 hours of back to back.

 

[tgrayson]

Of course, I acted as safety pilot, but I did not log the time past my 8 hours in his log book as instruction. For a student pilot, this would be lost loggable time, but is the legal alternative.

How you log the time isn't relevant to whether instruction occurred. The FAA would be the one deciding that, just like they decide who was PIC on a particular flight.

 

[anthenry]

So to answer the posters question, would the corrective action be to make a NASA report? ALso is there something, like 121/135 that allows the instructor to go over 8hrs due to unforseen circumstances like holding, taxiing, or atc delays?
​

 

[Roger, Roger]

How you log the time isn't relevant to whether instruction occurred. The FAA would be the one deciding that, just like they decide who was PIC on a particular flight.

That's true. I heard a story of an instructor from my old school who had timed out and was sleeping in the backseat while 2 private pilots timebuilding for commercial ran out of gas and put the airplane in a field. He got slapped with a suspension IIRC.

 

[Nigel Croker]

That's bad juju, you cannot, and should not do that. The reg, which is 61.195a

"In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hrs of flight training."

So the word is "any" so you can't chose when one day starts and another ends.

wouldnt you handle this minute by minute lookback to 24hrs

 

[shdw]

The reg, which is 61.195a

"In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hrs of flight training."

I'm giving the information direct from two separate aviation lawyers and various other professors discussing the situation. The regulation says, as you pointed out "In any 24-consecutive-hour period." They make no claim on when that period should start or finish thus you make that choice. It doesn't say in one day from xx hour to xx hour. You can technically violate this regulation if you flew 7 hours from noon till 11 Saturday and then flew 2 hours before noon Sunday.

But it all depends on where you draw the line, who are they to tell you when to sleep and when to fly? For instance, maybe you woke up and started flying at 6 and flew till noon straight, combining two cross countries and flew 5 hours. You go home, sleep for 4 to 5 hours and get up, do two more flights before dark and than a night flight accumulating another 6 hours. But you slept in between, heck for some people 4 to 5 hours is all they get a night. The regulation was designed to allow situations such as this and unfortunately gives a nice legal loop hole in the process.

That said, would I do 16 hours in a day like my example, heck no. But the way the regulation reads you are within its limitation. So if you cross over the line by an hour or two, no biggie, tack it on the next day to protect yourself. The key is to make sure you can separate it so that no 24 consecutive period has more than 8 hours as the regulation requests.

[flame shields up]

PS: I think the regulation should be changed, because this is a ridiculous way to have things set up.

 

[SteveC]

I'm giving the information direct from two separate aviation lawyers and various other professors discussing the situation. The regulation says, as you pointed out "In any 24-consecutive-hour period." They make no claim on when that period should start or finish thus you make that choice. It doesn't say in one day from xx hour to xx hour. You can technically violate this regulation if you flew 7 hours from noon till 11 Saturday and then flew 2 hours before noon Sunday.

But it all depends on where you draw the line, who are they to tell you when to sleep and when to fly? For instance, maybe you woke up and started flying at 6 and flew till noon straight, combining two cross countries and flew 5 hours. You go home, sleep for 4 to 5 hours and get up, do two more flights before dark and than a night flight accumulating another 6 hours. But you slept in between, heck for some people 4 to 5 hours is all they get a night. The regulation was designed to allow situations such as this and unfortunately gives a nice legal loop hole in the process.

That said, would I do 16 hours in a day like my example, heck no. But the way the regulation reads you are within its limitation. So if you cross over the line by an hour or two, no biggie, tack it on the next day to protect yourself. The key is to make sure you can separate it so that no 24 consecutive period has more than 8 hours as the regulation requests.

[flame shields up]

PS: I think the regulation should be changed, because this is a ridiculous way to have things set up.

I'm sorry, but you either misunderstood them or they are wrong. The regulation covers ANY 24 hour period, not just the specific 24 hour period that you choose.

 

[anthenry]

SDHDW, this is wrong. No way around that.

Edit: The 'Quote' didn't work. I didn't want it to appear in any way that I wrote what I tried to quote shdw on.

 

[ppragman]

I'm giving the information direct from two separate aviation lawyers and various other professors discussing the situation. The regulation says, as you pointed out "In any 24-consecutive-hour period." They make no claim on when that period should start or finish thus you make that choice. It doesn't say in one day from xx hour to xx hour. You can technically violate this regulation if you flew 7 hours from noon till 11 Saturday and then flew 2 hours before noon Sunday.

But it all depends on where you draw the line, who are they to tell you when to sleep and when to fly? For instance, maybe you woke up and started flying at 6 and flew till noon straight, combining two cross countries and flew 5 hours. You go home, sleep for 4 to 5 hours and get up, do two more flights before dark and than a night flight accumulating another 6 hours. But you slept in between, heck for some people 4 to 5 hours is all they get a night. The regulation was designed to allow situations such as this and unfortunately gives a nice legal loop hole in the process.QUOTE]

This is wrong. No way around that.

Note the word is "any" consecutive 24 hr period. Just like in 135 you can't have more than "8 in 24." Bust that, and you're in deep kim chi

 

[KevinJH7]

I'm giving the information direct from two separate aviation lawyers and various other professors discussing the situation.

I don't know which professors you had at DWC but I never heard any of them interpret the regulation like you are.

 

[shdw]

I'm sorry, but you either misunderstood them or they are wrong. The regulation covers ANY 24 hour period, not just the specific 24 hour period that you choose.

Let me see if I am getting this than. You fly Thursday evening from let's say 5 PM till midnight and accumulate 5 hours. Than Friday, after a good 8 hours sleep, you fly 4 hours before 5 PM, now you have within the preceding 24 hours flown more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period. By your definition, this is a violation, right? If you say no, please explain.


Do we have anyone here that can post up some 135 flying time schedules, hypothetical?

 

[shdw]

I don't know which professors you had at DWC but I never heard any of them interpret the regulation like you are.

Andrick, Bryant, and Joyce. I can't remember the other guys name, he wasn't my professor just one of the lawyers, his office was right next to Shirley across from the sims. (A few years ago mind you)

It was from my CFI class that I remember it clearest, that was with Bryant. It was said repeatedly and discussed through various scenarios.

 

[RumpleTumbler]

I'd like to work somewhere I can fly 8 hours a day 7 days a week.

7*8=56/7=8

It seems impossible to break if you don't fly over 8 hours a day. Look at the math.

 

[jhugz]

Let me see if I am getting this than. You fly Thursday evening from let's say 5 PM till midnight and accumulate 5 hours. Than Friday, after a good 8 hours sleep, you fly 4 hours before 5 PM, now you have within the preceding 24 hours flown more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period. By your definition, this is a violation, right? If you say no, please explain.


Do we have anyone here that can post up some 135 flying time schedules, hypothetical?

Want a shovel?

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Boy you instructors and 135 guys are so strict. In 121, I have flown and logged > 8 hours in a 24 hour period. Completely legal. Ask me how.

 

[moxiepilot]

Let me see if I am getting this than. You fly Thursday evening from let's say 5 PM till midnight and accumulate 5 hours. Than Friday, after a good 8 hours sleep, you fly 4 hours before 5 PM, now you have within the preceding 24 hours flown more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period. By your definition, this is a violation, right? If you say no, please explain.


Do we have anyone here that can post up some 135 flying time schedules, hypothetical?

Think of it like IFR currency and it should make sense. The consec. 24 hrs is rolling, like IFR currency So you lets say you fly 7 hours beginning at 10 am - 6 pm. You can only legally do another hour in flight until 6:59 am the following morning.

This following day though, you take the cumulative total of the preceding 24 hours. It cannot total more than 8 hours instruction.