Over 8 hours of flight instruction...

[CoffeeIcePapers]

You can only be scheduled for 8 hours a day. If you go over, as long as it is unintentional then you should be fine. I had a coworker that that happened to, had plenty of time and then a student insisted upon flying to San Antonio. ATC vectored them every where except the airport, and they wound up going overtime.

It has nothing to do with being scheduled. The reg, as posted earlier, is pretty clear.

 

[Maurus]

Lets throw another curveball.

Scenario: You are an MEI training a CMEL initial application, which requires



From my understanding, you aren't providing instruction during this time, but you are required to be there as an authorized instructor. Lets say you do a 1.5 and 1.6 hour lesson with a student, then do the long cross country where the student is performing the duties of PIC for a 5 hour XC. This is all completed in the same day.

Just a scenario, what do you guys think? Is this providing instruction or not?

Insteresting question, but the only way to prove an authorized instructor was in the aircraft would be to log dual given. Otherwise it wouldn't be a solo flight and the time could not be used.

 

[subpilot]

You can only be scheduled for 8 hours a day. If you go over, as long as it is unintentional then you should be fine. I had a coworker that that happened to, had plenty of time and then a student insisted upon flying to San Antonio. ATC vectored them every where except the airport, and they wound up going overtime.

scheduled is the 121 (and maybe 135?) rule. For instructing it is actual time.

 

[shdw]

The problem is you are not admitting your wrong, which as a CFI you should.

Let me see if I am getting this than.

Post 35, the post you quoted, asking if I wanted a shovel. Sounds to me like I am seeing if I understood what he was saying.

OP: Sorry for confusing you bud, apparently I was wrong.

Post 47, the same post you quoted me saying, "I twisted the regs." That post was when I admitted my misunderstanding.

One post was made, other than the original reply, prior to this, post 30, where I clarified where I got the information from. I also verified that by going back through my notes from the classes the information was given. Now maybe I misunderstood them, I sure hope that is the case, it is honestly too long ago for me to remember. However, aren't instructors entitled to misunderstandings now and again?

I again say, want a shovel?

After failing to read, making a snide remark, and then directly calling someone trying to learn something stupid you repeat this. This is how you demonstrate maturity? Common man, seriously.

This is why I asked if you do that with your students. You have to listen to what a person is saying and trying to understand before you jump down their throat. Even then, snide remarks or bashing someones ego (calling them stupid) will never promote learning under any situation. I do hope you give that courtesy to your paying customers.

Anyways, that is it for me here and again my apologies to the OP for the confusion. I do hope you take this as an effort to point out why what you did was wrong and not as a personal attack. Good day Jhugz.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Insteresting question, but the only way to prove an authorized instructor was in the aircraft would be to log dual given. Otherwise it wouldn't be a solo flight and the time could not be used.

Well, I log it as PIC for the student and in the remarks section, I put "Performing the duties of PIC" and sign the logbook. Our DPEs prefer that, since that time should really be 10 hours of solo. I have no idea what the correct way to log it is, since the reg isn't that clear. Just throwing the scenario out there for discussion.

 

[poser765]

I'd like to work somewhere I can fly 8 hours a day 7 days a week.

7*8=56/7=8

It seems impossible to break if you don't fly over 8 hours a day. Look at the math.

Why on earth would you want to fly 8 hours a day 7 days? Work smarter, not harder.

 

[anthenry]

Lets throw another curveball.

Scenario: You are an MEI training a CMEL initial application, which requires



From my understanding, you aren't providing instruction during this time, but you are required to be there as an authorized instructor. Lets say you do a 1.5 and 1.6 hour lesson with a student, then do the long cross country where the student is performing the duties of PIC for a 5 hour XC. This is all completed in the same day.

Just a scenario, what do you guys think? Is this providing instruction or not?

You can go over 8 hours in this situation, and here is why. While on a supervised solo you are acting are monitoring, but you are not giving flight instruction. Supervised solo means you supervise the student and take notes on what they do. After the flight you debrief. If while on the flight you take over controls and/or begin giving flight instruction, it is no longer a supervised solo and must be counted toward your flight time.
Yes you do log this time as PIC in the student logbook. You do not log it as dual given, PIC, or total time in your logbook, which means this is not flying time.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

You can go over 8 hours in this situation, and here is why. While on a supervised solo you are acting are monitoring, but you are not giving flight instruction. Supervised solo means you supervise the student and take notes on what they do. After the flight you debrief. If while on the flight you take over controls and/or begin giving flight instruction, it is no longer a supervised solo and must be counted toward your flight time.
Yes you do log this time as PIC in the student logbook. You do not log it as dual given, PIC, or total time in your logbook, which means this is not flying time.

I log it as PIC in my logbook, because of this from 61.51:

Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

Since 61.129(b)(4) requires an authorized instructor on board and while the student is performing the duties of PIC, he cannot legally act as PIC.

 

[anthenry]

That's an excellent point. Glad you were able to link those seperate regulations. I appreciate the clarity.

 

[Houston]

You can only be scheduled for 8 hours a day. If you go over, as long as it is unintentional then you should be fine. I had a coworker that that happened to, had plenty of time and then a student insisted upon flying to San Antonio. ATC vectored them every where except the airport, and they wound up going overtime.

How did the student end up in charge of the flight?

 

[tgrayson]

I log it as PIC in my logbook, because of this from 61.51:

Not really necessary to go through that sort of gyration. 61.51(e)(3) makes it clear that only acting as an authorized instructor is required to log the PIC time; you don't have to actually be instructing:

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
[...]
(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
​

Since performing the duties of pilot in command requires an "authorized instructor" on board, the instructor can log the PIC time. The student cannot, however, unless he has the appropriate category and class ratings.

 

[tlove482]

Noone logs the time of each flight anyway so who would know what time of day you took the flight that "might" or "might not" have put you over 8 hours in 24-hour period?

 

[Maurus]

Noone logs the time of each flight anyway so who would know what time of day you took the flight that "might" or "might not" have put you over 8 hours in 24-hour period?

141 records and scheduling sheets.

 

[nosehair]

61.51(e)(3) makes it clear that only acting as an authorized instructor is required to log the PIC time; you don't have to actually be instructing:

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
[...]
(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
​

Intersting interpretation. What do you, or more importantly, the Feds, think "serving as the authorized instructor" means?

 

[Soku39]

So I'm sitting back here laughing, wondering where on earth it's even possible to do 8 hours a day, when I'm lucky I get 3 a day. I'm sure there's dozens of people laughing with me. Keep it up guys.

 

[tgrayson]

Intersting interpretation. What do you, or more importantly, the Feds, think "serving as the authorized instructor" means?

Whenever an authorized instructor is required, if you're serving that role, I'd say you're serving as the "authorized instructor." Whacky interpretation, I know.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

The student cannot, however, unless he has the appropriate category and class ratings.

I know this, and you know this, but it is one of those things with the local DPEs and FSDO guys where it is just easier to reluctantly do it the way they want than to argue with them.