Over 8 hours of flight instruction...

shdw said:
Let me see if I am getting this than. You fly Thursday evening from let's say 5 PM till midnight and accumulate 5 hours. Than Friday, after a good 8 hours sleep, you fly 4 hours before 5 PM, now you have within the preceding 24 hours flown more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period. By your definition, this is a violation, right? If you say no, please explain.


Do we have anyone here that can post up some 135 flying time schedules, hypothetical? ;)
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Flight instruction has no regulation on required rest, not sure if you were implying that. The way you present this it seem you are saying I could concievably fly 16 hours straight as long as I drew a line in my logbook and said that is where I decided I wanted to declare my 24 hour period ended and a new one begain. The regulation says "any 24-consecutive hour period". It does not say a 24 hour period that you may designate.

CENCAL, please explain. I have experience flying 135, 121 and flight instruction and any change to this rule would be news to me. I would love to learn how you do this. I understand you can fly over 8 hours for 135 and 121 with extra rest requirements, but I don't believe those exceptions apply to flight instructors. Please elaborate and educate me.
 
anthenry said:
Flight instruction has no regulation on required rest, not sure if you were implying that. The way you present this it seem you are saying I could concievably fly 16 hours straight as long as I drew a line in my logbook and said that is where I decided I wanted to declare my 24 hour period ended and a new one begain. The regulation says "any 24-consecutive hour period". It does not say a 24 hour period that you may designate.

CENCAL, please explain. I have experience flying 135, 121 and flight instruction and any change to this rule would be news to me. I would love to learn how you do this. I understand you can fly over 8 hours for 135 and 121 with extra rest requirements, but I don't believe those exceptions apply to flight instructors. Please elaborate and educate me.
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I don't know of any exceptions to flight instructors, but since you've flown 121 you probably know - "legal to start, legal to finish".... the only thing we can't exceed as a projection, is the 16 hour duty day (unless they add 91 flying after).

So, my day is scheduled at 7.5 hours, but legs 1 through three add 45 minutes to my day. So, I'm projected to exceed 8 on leg 4.... I can still do the leg because I was "at/under" 8 hours to start the day, so that's considered "legal to start, legal to finish".
 
shdw said:
Let me see if I am getting this than. You fly Thursday evening from let's say 5 PM till midnight and accumulate 5 hours. Than Friday, after a good 8 hours sleep, you fly 4 hours before 5 PM, now you have within the preceding 24 hours flown more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period. By your definition, this is a violation, right?
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What you describe exceeds 8 hours within any 24 hour period, yes.
 
Absolutely. I agree with all that, and I would think legal to start-legal to finish would be the case for instruction as well. I can't find anything that says that though, or that gives direction on unexpected atc delays, weather, or whatever else.
 
anthenry said:
Absolutely. I agree with all that, and I would think legal to start-legal to finish would be the case for instruction as well. I can't find anything that says that though, or that gives direction on unexpected atc delays, weather, or whatever else.
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AFAIK, and I realize ERAU is the ultimate "play it safe" type place, there weren't any. If you had 4 students with 2 hours of flying but allowed the first three get you close to 8, the only way you could do it is to shorten the flight....

24 hour period can definitely bite you though..... If you squeezed 8 hours in a 16 hour day you'd still be working at the limit if you had 8 hours of flying the next day and did too much of it before the previous hours had "fallen off the clock", so to speak. (Speaking from 121, we consider 24 hour periods to be rolling, consecutive, etc..... Whitlow.... ugh!)
 
SteveC said:
I'm sorry, but you either misunderstood them or they are wrong. The regulation covers ANY 24 hour period, not just the specific 24 hour period that you choose.
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:yeahthat: Listen to SteveC on this one. He is 100% correct.


However, I will also add that my hat is off to anyone who could endure more than eight hours of instruction in a twenty-four hour period.
 
SteveC said:
What you describe exceeds 8 hours within any 24 hour period, yes.
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Interesting, and no, I didn't remember it wrong, I went back through my CFI notes. What I explained the first post is what I had written in my notes. Including that notes for starting and ending points of days in your log book. Now I may have copied it down wrong a couple years back, no way to know that. But thanks for clearing it up bud, makes sense.


Jhugz: Seriously, was that called for?

OP: Sorry for confusing you bud, apparently I was wrong.
 
cencal83406 said:
(Speaking from 121, we consider 24 hour periods to be rolling, consecutive, etc..... Whitlow.... ugh!)
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I admit I don't know supplement and flag rules but for domestic the 8 hour limit is per duty period and not on a rolling 24 hour lookback.
 
shdw said:
Interesting, and no, I didn't remember it wrong, I went back through my CFI notes. What I explained the first post is what I had written in my notes. Including that notes for starting and ending points of days in your log book. Now I may have copied it down wrong a couple years back, no way to know that. But thanks for clearing it up bud, makes sense.
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Have you considered that your instructor was confused?
 
Thanks for all the clarification here. Ive always understood the 8 hours in any 24 hour period but I was more or less just asking what should be done if you accidentally go over and you want to do the right thing. I had a local flight and a longer cross country so that is how I came to 7.9. I wasnt really paying attention to this as I normally have 1 or 2 flight a day that don't come near 8 hours.
 
In my opinion, if you went slightly over once by accident then log it and chock it up as a mistake. The problem is when you willfully go over, routinely go over, or falsify your logbook. File a NASA form if you are worried about certificate action.
 
jhugz said:
You are twisting this reg so badly and then dragging names of aviation lawyers in this mess to try to rectify this stupidity. Yes, I would say so.
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Clarifying where it came from and verifying those notes is "dragging" people in? My apologies for being so imperfect as to misconstrue a regulation around higher beings, like you, that don't make mistakes.

Maybe you should consider that change you spoke of on the general thread. It is pretty clear something already has you rubbed the wrong way to be calling other members stupid for not understanding something. I certainly hope you don't treat your students in this manner. :dunno:
 
shdw said:
Clarifying where it came from and verifying those notes is "dragging" people in? My apologies for being so imperfect as to misconstrue a regulation around higher beings, like you, that don't make mistakes.

Maybe you should consider that change you spoke of on the general thread. It is pretty clear something already has you rubbed the wrong way to be calling other members stupid for not understanding something. I certainly hope you don't treat your students in this manner. :dunno:
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The problem is you are not admitting your wrong, which as a CFI you should. I've had students correct me before and it doesn't hurt my feelings. If your wrong admit it don't try to justify it by dragging names into a forum where they may or may not of said this stuff.

As for questioning how I treat my students that is just another shining example of your maturity.

I again say, want a shovel?
 
Doug's living room =

1. A place for people to learn about aviation schtuff.
2. A place to enjoy being with people with similar interests.
3. All of the above.

A man's gotta ask himself, "Which one of the above are we choosing today?"

oldman.gif
 
subpilot said:
I admit I don't know supplement and flag rules but for domestic the 8 hour limit is per duty period and not on a rolling 24 hour lookback.
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Well that's the 121 flying I do.... perhaps I'm just confused....

Yeah, I know on the duty period that you have the 8 hour "limit". But I thought that according to Whitlow, for rest purposes, you can't have more than 8 hours of flying in a 24 hour lookback window (rolling, then, obviously) without having x amount of rest after it. Or is Whitlow more a duty thing? Didn't get a great explanation of Whitlow here at work all I know is that we are to Fear Whitlow.
 
cencal83406 said:
Well that's the 121 flying I do.... perhaps I'm just confused....

Yeah, I know on the duty period that you have the 8 hour "limit". But I thought that according to Whitlow, for rest purposes, you can't have more than 8 hours of flying in a 24 hour lookback window (rolling, then, obviously) without having x amount of rest after it. Or is Whitlow more a duty thing? Didn't get a great explanation of Whitlow here at work all I know is that we are to Fear Whitlow.
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Whitlow has to do with having at least 8 hours rest in the past 24 hours. In other words, if you are coming off of reduced rest then it limits your next days duty period.

Current regulations limit scheduled flight time for domestic operations to a maximum of 8 hours in a single duty period, with that limit to be exceeded only under circumstances beyond a carrier’s control. Another section of the rule requires that pilots "look back" after every arrival and find at least an 8-hour scheduled rest period during the previous 24 hours.
FAA Deputy Chief Counsel James Whitlow in November 2000 issued an interpretation of the rule in terms of delays, stating, "If, when using the actual expected flight time [for a flight segment], the carrier cannot find at least eight hours of look-back rest upon arrival, then the flight may not depart [on that segment]."
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source: http://www2.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=422
 
Lets throw another curveball.

Scenario: You are an MEI training a CMEL initial application, which requires

10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section)
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From my understanding, you aren't providing instruction during this time, but you are required to be there as an authorized instructor. Lets say you do a 1.5 and 1.6 hour lesson with a student, then do the long cross country where the student is performing the duties of PIC for a 5 hour XC. This is all completed in the same day.

Just a scenario, what do you guys think? Is this providing instruction or not?
 
You can only be scheduled for 8 hours a day. If you go over, as long as it is unintentional then you should be fine. I had a coworker that that happened to, had plenty of time and then a student insisted upon flying to San Antonio. ATC vectored them every where except the airport, and they wound up going overtime.
 
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