Is "inside the cockpit" all the job is?
House votes today on 1500hr rule WITH college loophole
- Thread starter Clocks
- Start date
Is "inside the cockpit" all the job is?
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Nope, but it shows a recruiter that you can probably sit through ground school and learn something.
What about adding an exemption for "x amount of years in another field." Some of us here are on their second career. I spent 9 years in my last field because I didn't have the money for college. And when you are living on your own in CA, as a young man, you barely have enough money to make ends meet when new to the work force. I was even with the same company for 9 years. But according to you *and more importantly HR* thats basically worth nothing.:whatever:
Clocks
Well-Known Member
9 years of working doesn't replace college, and college doesn't replace 9 years of working. They are two entirely different things teaching you entirely different kinds of knowledge.
I don't understand this "exemption" thing. I've said that this bill encouraging 4 year degrees is a good thing, that it helps raise the profession to the level of other professions. And a couple of people got pissy about it.
So yeah..I stumbled onto your rant on another forum and figured out why you're so pissy. We're all entitled to our opinions, though you may be surprised to hear how many people had to work their asses off to get through college. A college degree isn't proof that someone's mommy and daddy wrote a fat check so their kid could buy their way into the airline industry...as you clearly believe.
I don't understand this "exemption" thing. I've said that this bill encouraging 4 year degrees is a good thing, that it helps raise the profession to the level of other professions. And a couple of people got pissy about it.
So yeah..I stumbled onto your rant on another forum and figured out why you're so pissy. We're all entitled to our opinions, though you may be surprised to hear how many people had to work their asses off to get through college. A college degree isn't proof that someone's mommy and daddy wrote a fat check so their kid could buy their way into the airline industry...as you clearly believe.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
I don't believe this.
However I'm having a hard time believe that the 4yr degree is all that important. I just haven't seen it at the college I'm going to, however everyone's opinion of their college could be different. I am getting the check mark my completing the degree however I just don't see how this degree:
1.) Helps me when I get on the job.
2.) Helps me raise the professional level of the airline industry.
3.) Shows a recruiter that I'm able to pass ground school.
Again maybe it does in others experience, in mine however it does not.
FlyChicaga
Vintage Restoration
How does a four year degree help you in any other job? After all, they'll teach you what you need to know when hired, right?
The way I see it, the great majority of pilots feel we need to be compensated and treated as professionals. Why not encourage things that will enhance that perception? If it was up to me, to get hired at a major airline you'd need a Master's degree, not just a Bachelor's degree. A Bachelor's should be a minimum to get hired at a regional.
I'm not trying to knock anyone here without a degree. I'm just saying that we should do what we can to make our profession more competitive by upping the requirements to get hired. If you want to equate yourselves with doctors and lawyers, then you better be prepared to be educated like them.
The way I see it, the great majority of pilots feel we need to be compensated and treated as professionals. Why not encourage things that will enhance that perception? If it was up to me, to get hired at a major airline you'd need a Master's degree, not just a Bachelor's degree. A Bachelor's should be a minimum to get hired at a regional.
I'm not trying to knock anyone here without a degree. I'm just saying that we should do what we can to make our profession more competitive by upping the requirements to get hired. If you want to equate yourselves with doctors and lawyers, then you better be prepared to be educated like them.
Perhaps you aren't trying to get all you can out of your college experience. Perhaps you are just merely trying to check a box and then yes your college experience will be nothing more than just that.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Agreed. Of course, I'm one of the guys without a degree, so you could expect me to say that.
esa17
Well-Known Member
How many of the people without a degree think they are jokes?
How many with a degree think they are important?
I'm of the latter. The fact is a college degree makes you a much more rounded person. It's rather easy to tell if someone never went to college as opposed to someone who did.
Who would you rather have sitting up front? Someone who flew only a 172 and a baron for 2000 hours or someone who flew 30 different types over 4000 hours?
Without a degree you often times see people with a limited scope, who only see something as A or B, black or white. That doesn't mean a college degree is the end all be all, it has to be augmented with the proper experiences.
I went to one of those "aviation universities" but didn't drink the koolaid. Instead of learning from a hotshot F-172 Captain I worked my way through my degree, flew over 35 types, earned my mechanics certificate, and to date have given about 1000 dual.
I think the degree is very important but so is what you do with it. They are merely a key to open a door, not a magic bullet.
How many with a degree think they are important?
I'm of the latter. The fact is a college degree makes you a much more rounded person. It's rather easy to tell if someone never went to college as opposed to someone who did.
Who would you rather have sitting up front? Someone who flew only a 172 and a baron for 2000 hours or someone who flew 30 different types over 4000 hours?
Without a degree you often times see people with a limited scope, who only see something as A or B, black or white. That doesn't mean a college degree is the end all be all, it has to be augmented with the proper experiences.
I went to one of those "aviation universities" but didn't drink the koolaid. Instead of learning from a hotshot F-172 Captain I worked my way through my degree, flew over 35 types, earned my mechanics certificate, and to date have given about 1000 dual.
I think the degree is very important but so is what you do with it. They are merely a key to open a door, not a magic bullet.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Hi Guys,
If you don't write your Senators, then you can't complain. The ATP portion of the bill was inserted after HEAVY lobbying BY PILOTS.
I beleive it was Mica who inserted the college loophole, and it was done AFTER the bill came out of committee. Schumer's peeps aren't that interested in it, so call/write your Senator and let them know.
As far as the part 61 vs 141 vs ERAU whatever debate, I'll say a few words. Having CFIed at a variety of places, you CAN'T divide up places like that. You have to judge them each individually.
I've seen part 61 structured to the point where it was silly. I've seen 141 that existed almost soley to make checkmarks on paper.
By and large, however, it's been my experience that those FBOs/Schools/Programs which allowed students to make their own decisions (within oversight) tended to produce the best pilots. Not because they were TOLD "you're the best", but because they had enough faith in their own ability to make good decisions out on their own, because they had been exposed to "out of the box" situations.
I spent some time at ERAU, and I've got the paper on the wall to prove it. I've seen their flight operations. Their programs are effective, but in a different way. From what I've seen, it tends to squeeze a lot of folks into a mold...some people have the talent, and they would have been fine almost anywhere. But because of the structure of the program, others are beaten into a superficial level of ability (and can operate safely within THAT framework) that may or may not last outside of finishing the program.
Those are the folks that A) give ERAU-type programs a bad name and B) tend to weed themselves out of a 61 or looser 141 type program.
The management of these schools are NOT interested in changing their programs, and they few times they've been told "hire from the outside", it's inevitably ended in failure and frustration.
By that same token, I'm not a fan of 90 day zero to hero programs. 90 days isn't long enough to "marinate" a pilot, IMHO. If you force feed someone, a lot of times they just barf it up, and that's it.
If you're going to run a non-college program, I'd like to see at least 8 months to a year, with time spent flying gliders, fueling airplanes, and maybe turning some wrenches, but that's me.
Richman
If you don't write your Senators, then you can't complain. The ATP portion of the bill was inserted after HEAVY lobbying BY PILOTS.
I beleive it was Mica who inserted the college loophole, and it was done AFTER the bill came out of committee. Schumer's peeps aren't that interested in it, so call/write your Senator and let them know.
As far as the part 61 vs 141 vs ERAU whatever debate, I'll say a few words. Having CFIed at a variety of places, you CAN'T divide up places like that. You have to judge them each individually.
I've seen part 61 structured to the point where it was silly. I've seen 141 that existed almost soley to make checkmarks on paper.
By and large, however, it's been my experience that those FBOs/Schools/Programs which allowed students to make their own decisions (within oversight) tended to produce the best pilots. Not because they were TOLD "you're the best", but because they had enough faith in their own ability to make good decisions out on their own, because they had been exposed to "out of the box" situations.
I spent some time at ERAU, and I've got the paper on the wall to prove it. I've seen their flight operations. Their programs are effective, but in a different way. From what I've seen, it tends to squeeze a lot of folks into a mold...some people have the talent, and they would have been fine almost anywhere. But because of the structure of the program, others are beaten into a superficial level of ability (and can operate safely within THAT framework) that may or may not last outside of finishing the program.
Those are the folks that A) give ERAU-type programs a bad name and B) tend to weed themselves out of a 61 or looser 141 type program.
The management of these schools are NOT interested in changing their programs, and they few times they've been told "hire from the outside", it's inevitably ended in failure and frustration.
By that same token, I'm not a fan of 90 day zero to hero programs. 90 days isn't long enough to "marinate" a pilot, IMHO. If you force feed someone, a lot of times they just barf it up, and that's it.
If you're going to run a non-college program, I'd like to see at least 8 months to a year, with time spent flying gliders, fueling airplanes, and maybe turning some wrenches, but that's me.
Richman
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
The most important learning I did in college was outside the classroom.
Basically its where I learned that I don't know everything/anything, need to talk less and listen more, and that I need to slow down and enjoy life a little (actually...I learned that last one when I finished and went "well, that sucked")
That's why I think people should GO to college, not just attend. The classroom part is the least significant part.
I don't like the fact that some schools are getting a free pass on this. But in my opinion its not the end of the world. This will make it much harder for the zero to hero academies to pump out people who touched an airplane for the first time just 90 days ago.
Aviation degrees aren't everything the schools that offer them are made up to be. But they're not the end of the world. The emphasis is not on getting you to the right seat as quick as possible, but rather making sure you actually learn stuff. Some of that stuff is a joke, but a lot of it isn't.
I still don't think that people should go directly from any kind of school to an airline. I also don't think that people should stick around and instruct at the same school/location where they learned. This encourages "inbreeding" and doesn't expose you to as many different situations as you would if you went somewhere else.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
When you go to some River Valley Online State Community College, of course you won't feel that having a degree is all that important because YOUR degree is not all that important. Do I have regrets about my college experience, sure. Most of it has to do with exactly what you feel. For a while I went there just to get that degree so that I could get an engineering job. I didn't go to college to go to college, I went there to get that degree, and that is exactly what you are doing.
DenverPilot8
Well-Known Member
Pilot pay is going to go up right? 1500TT and ATP will magically make all of the negotiated contracts go away and we will all make more money in the end if I ever get there. Sounds great to me. Even though there is Zero financing for students I'm sure I can just magically build up 1500 hours and 500 hours cross country when I'm at 300TT now being a cfi. It only took me like 3 years too. Woo Hoo this is great! By the way didn't the pilots in the buffalo crash both have ATPs?
Baronman
Well-Known Member
FYI I do have a BS in a technical field....(no not aviation related).
It was f'ing hard and I spent 4 years studying really hard and spending lots of extra time on projects and labs while my friends who studied Business, Communications, Psychology etc hung out and played beer pong. That was my choice....but nobody can tell me that a C average and a BA in Communications means squat.
I even have a step brother in school now who's a solid C+ student studying History. I don't see how his college "experience" makes him any better qualified or more apt to increase safety in a flight.
Ideally sure, require both time requirements and college to get into the field.
Heck why not ask why NYPD required 60ish college credits for it's applicants?
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
Here is my experience with getting a college degree. I have a bachelors in business and right now I am in my first semester of working on my MBA. There is so much that I learned in college, during different business classes, that helped me to understand why things are done they way they are. I'm not talking aviation related but in the world. Going into college I thought I knew how to make a business run well. I was way off. There are soo many things you learn that you never even thought of. Experience matter as well though. I run a warehouse for a chain of groceries stores and there are things that only experience can teach. But both are important. There are many times I take things I learned in college, and combine that with my experience as a manager, to make important decisions. I am not saying that a college degree makes you smarter than someone without though. My old next door neighbor growing up was rod bush. He only had a high school degree but he was the CEO of KTM America. He just knew business and worked his way up. So teach each his own. But I think there is alot that college can teach you.
LoadMasterC141
Well-Known Member
The whole stigma we as a country put on a 4 year degree really boggles me.
I don't like the 1500 hour rule one bit. I think it is too high and now the cost of flight training and getting the requisite time will run more hard working individuals off, leaving the ones with parents with large bank rolls as the only left. So now we populate the flight deck with more spoiled rich kiddies who have not learned alot of life's lessons yet. Smart. Real smart.
I don't like the 1500 hour rule one bit. I think it is too high and now the cost of flight training and getting the requisite time will run more hard working individuals off, leaving the ones with parents with large bank rolls as the only left. So now we populate the flight deck with more spoiled rich kiddies who have not learned alot of life's lessons yet. Smart. Real smart.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
For every spoiled rich kid who went to college there is an ignorant lazy one who didn't bother. This stereotype cuts both ways.
This "spoiled rich kid" thing really gets me though. I'm really sorry you non-college folks didn't want to work hard and hold down a full time job while attending college like some of us. I don't know your past (and I honestly don't care at all, I'm sure you cured cancer, flew to the moon, and designed faster than light travel while the rest of us went to college), but you certainly don't know mine. If the only way you feel good about your high school diploma is to flame everyone who did put in the effort and money to earn a higher education, then I probably don't want to be sitting next to you some day anyways.