House votes today on 1500hr rule WITH college loophole

[BobDDuck]

The 'college academies' loophole is better than nothing. The ATP 'zero to hero' in 90 day programs will grind to a near-halt. It'll take 4 years and a serious regimen of study to buy your way into a job this way, at least.

When I went through ATP the RJ program was just coming on line. Up until that point it was fully expected that you would instruct for a year or two and get your 1000 to 1500 hours and then go somewhere else. When the economy was cranking it wasn't too hard to do 800 to 1000 hours of instruction in a year.

 

[surreal1221]

One was a Gulfstream 'Academy' grad.. the other was a traditional 4 year college/ CFI route type.

The 'college academies' loophole is better than nothing. The ATP 'zero to hero' in 90 day programs will grind to a near-halt. It'll take 4 years and a serious regimen of study to buy your way into a job this way, at least.

So the Captain had no formal education?

Double-edged sword.

No more zero-to-hero, which is fine, the push for RJ programs was insane and ridiculous - especially considering some of the people that came through my previous-previous place of employment thinking they'd be hot shot airline pilots just by doing this RJ course. :banghead: 45 year old guys who owned their own business, wanting to dream for a day. . .

The best thing it'll do is provide a real incentive for people to take real value in finding other ways to fly from 190/250 hours to 1500tt. (Be it CFI, VFR 135 to IFR 135, to whatever).

Now, the question is, since it's clear the law will be an ATP w/ 1500 hours TT, how will a multi-crew license play into all of this? Does this effectively shut that down as well?

 

[jhugz]

Now, the question is, since it's clear the law will be an ATP w/ 1500 hours TT, how will a multi-crew license play into all of this? Does this effectively shut that down as well?

You can only hope, but you have see the house fold today so who knows.

 

[Airdale]

Maybe this will just deter people from this ridiculous industry. And maybe, just maybe, the airlines will realize that people won't pay $100k for the education to make $30,000 a year and replace a Midwest pilot who was making more than double that.

I woudn't recommend anybody get into this career. Fly, absolutely. For a living? Hahaha...

 

[FlyChicaga]

I never went to a college flight program I did all my ratings through a FBO but from what I have seen flying with college flight students is this. They lack the real world experience that FBO guys get. They are told where and when to go on cross countries. Their hands are held the entire time. I recently flew with a guy who is new to our airport because he came from a college flight program and was scared to land on our 2400 foot runway because he college never let them go into anything this small. Now from a airlines prospect that is fine. But college flight progam students miss out on alot of real world flying. No real grass strips. They can't wake up at 3am and go fly just for the hell it like I used to when i was younger. Plus one the big things is that the most experienced instructors are at the FBOs. At a FBO you have the oppurtinty to learn from a guy who has been doing this a very long time. Not some college kid just passing the time. I'm not saying that college programs arent good. Because some of them are very good. But you miss out on alot of good experiences that you can only experience at a small FBO with a seasoned instructor.

I got all of that and more at my university flight program. Personally, I am very pleased with the instruction I received at the University of Illinois, and if I had to do it over again, I wouldn't change a thing.

Not all universities are one in the same, however.

 

[surreal1221]

Maybe this will just deter people from this ridiculous industry. And maybe, just maybe, the airlines will realize that people won't pay $100k for the education to make $30,000 a year and replace a Midwest pilot who was making more than double that.

I woudn't recommend anybody get into this career. Fly, absolutely. For a living? Hahaha...

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner.

Although, I think it should be clarified.

There are some great flying jobs out there, you (general you) won't see them.

Stay away from the airlines, and you might be able to enjoy the career.

 

[Airdale]

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner.

Although, I think it should be clarified.

There are some great flying jobs out there, you (general you) won't see them.

Stay away from the airlines, and you might be able to enjoy the career.

Yeah...I'm working on my plan B. I just can't see myself still doing this in 10 years. I want to be flying, thats for sure. But you can only slam your head into a wall so much before you realize enough is enough.

When I was a student and even a CFI, I was so wide eyed and excited about flying for the airlines. Wow, just to walk through the terminal in a uniform was a thrill. 3 years later, I can't believe how naive I was. Looking back, doing my 20 in the Coast Guard would have been the best choice.

 

[surreal1221]

I hear ya man. Some days I feel the same way.

Anyway.

 

[Seggy]

Before everyone gets their panties in a bunch two things on this loop-hole


A) This college credit item was not in the Senate Bill which was introduced by Schumer up in NY. This loop-hole was put in by the REP that comes from the ERAU district in Daytona Beach. Schumer is being pushed by the victims families so I think this will be taken out because they are pissed about this loop-hole.

B) Even if it does get in, it is going to be up to the FAA Administrator how many hours will go towards that 'credit'. I think *hope* at most it will be take one hour per the credit total needed for a bachelors degree in 'aviation whatever studies'

My take on it.

 

[FlyChicaga]

The guys and gals at the major airlines aren't going to be there forever. They're going to retire, and those who quit aren't going to be the ones filling those seats. Question is, should we leave all the "good" jobs to the SJSers, or should those of us who want to affect change hang on and hope we can do something to fix this mess?

Personally, I've thought long and hard about getting out of the industry (and continue to do so). I consider it only because of family. Do I want to be on the road for half my life, away from my kids? Will being "home" in a "normal" job even afford me more time with them?

Eh, for now I'm staying put. I'll ride this one out, because I have a feeling things will turn around. They may get worse, but they'll get better.

 

[MikeD]

The guys and gals at the major airlines aren't going to be there forever. They're going to retire, and those who quit aren't going to be the ones filling those seats. Question is, should we leave all the "good" jobs to the SJSers, or should those of us who want to affect change hang on and hope we can do something to fix this mess?

The indistry needs good people who want to stay, not just SJSers who have to stay because they have "nowhere else to go!!!" (as Richard Gere would say in Officer And a Gentleman).

Personally, I've thought long and hard about getting out of the industry (and continue to do so). I consider it only because of family. Do I want to be on the road for half my life, away from my kids? Will being "home" in a "normal" job even afford me more time with them?

Eh, for now I'm staying put. I'll ride this one out, because I have a feeling things will turn around. They may get worse, but they'll get better.

Here's the thing though, the airline biz IS NOT the only to make a career out of flying, and certainly isn't the top of the mountain. It's simply one of many ways to make a career out of flying. So don't think you're stuck there by any means. Heck, look at my weird career path. I'm not a 747-400 international Capt for UAL (as the Flight Dept head at ERAU said the school produces during Doug and I's freshman indoc), but I enjoy what I do....it's more than just shuttling cattle from pt A to pt B and being on the road all the time. But that's just me. Everyone has their niche. I would want people to simply make an informed decision knowing that there are other career flying gigs out there, with good pay bene's and QOL, besides 121.

 

[400A]

Well said Mike! 121 has a long track record of being the "in the public eye" road and destination to making a lot of money and having 18 days off a month.

We need to start a more rigorous campaign on educating people of the other facets of aviation one can make a good living in and have a pretty darn good QOL.

The first step, we need to start stomping on people who flex their epeens about a particular training path. Every time someone spouts off about how pilot from XYZ way of training is the bane of the industry, the collective needs to stomp that crap out. We really need to come together as a group and be a lot A LOT more supportive of everyone, regardless of path taken

As long as we continue to draw a line in the sand and try to alienate people we aren't going to get anywhere. Here is the hint, if you find yourself saying or thinking or preaching that "I did this, this way and those that don't are a burden in the cockpit" YOU are part of the problem.


Ok, rant over. I'll start on the other facets;

I went from instructing to 121 regional to 121 supp cargo to air ambulance. I never thought I would end up in air ambulance, all the 135 on demand horror stories. I have to admit, this is the best job by far. I am home every day, I maybe fly 30 hours a month, two to four legs a day MAX. I do all my own planning and coordination (flight side whise).

I get to fly a well maintained, fairly good performing little airplane. On top of all that, I get to make just a tiny little difference in people's lives.

What I have found, the little bit of experience I got while I was training, is nothing compared to the continued education I strive for on a daily basis. Flying an airplane is easy, making performance and operational decisions is easy (hell the OpSpecs and GOM spell out almost everything), being able to think on your feet, make tough decisions based on safety first, etc. Those are the things a pilot needs.

 

[jhugz]

Before everyone gets their panties in a bunch two things on this loop-hole


A) This college credit item was not in the Senate Bill which was introduced by Schumer up in NY. This loop-hole was put in by the REP that comes from the ERAU district in Daytona Beach. Schumer is being pushed by the victims families so I think this will be taken out because they are pissed about this loop-hole.

B) Even if it does get in, it is going to be up to the FAA Administrator how many hours will go towards that 'credit'. I think *hope* at most it will be take one hour per the credit total needed for a bachelors degree in 'aviation whatever studies'

My take on it.

Thanks Seggy makes sense.

 

[dasleben]

I never went to a college flight program I did all my ratings through a FBO but from what I have seen flying with college flight students is this. They lack the real world experience that FBO guys get. They are told where and when to go on cross countries. Their hands are held the entire time. I recently flew with a guy who is new to our airport because he came from a college flight program and was scared to land on our 2400 foot runway because he college never let them go into anything this small. Now from a airlines prospect that is fine. But college flight progam students miss out on alot of real world flying. No real grass strips. They can't wake up at 3am and go fly just for the hell it like I used to when i was younger. Plus one the big things is that the most experienced instructors are at the FBOs. At a FBO you have the oppurtinty to learn from a guy who has been doing this a very long time. Not some college kid just passing the time. I'm not saying that college programs arent good. Because some of them are very good. But you miss out on alot of good experiences that you can only experience at a small FBO with a seasoned instructor.

Let me just say this: All flight schools lack real world experience. Every single one of them operate within a controlled environment. I taught 141, 142, as well as 61, and none of them got anywhere near what I'd call as "real" as flying for a company out on the line. An FBO education doesn't prepare you any better than university experience; both guys are going to have substantial learning curves ahead of them. Don't fool yourself.

 

[etflies]

Let me just say this: All flight schools lack real world experience. Every single one of them operate within a controlled environment. I taught 141, 142, as well as 61, and none of them got anywhere near what I'd call as "real" as flying for a company out on the line. An FBO education doesn't prepare you any better than university experience; both guys are going to have substantial learning curves ahead of them. Don't fool yourself.

You'll have a learning curve whichever route you take, anybody who thinks otherwise is downright stupid. That being said, having instructed at a 61 FBO for a while, I've spoken with several airline/coporate/frac guys who say it is a lot closer to the real world than a university program. Not the same, but a better representation of what you'll get. At any rate, that is neither here, nor there.

I support the bill, at least it is a step, however small or slightly sideways it may be, in the right direction.

 

[MikeD]

Well said Mike! 121 has a long track record of being the "in the public eye" road and destination to making a lot of money and having 18 days off a month.

We need to start a more rigorous campaign on educating people of the other facets of aviation one can make a good living in and have a pretty darn good QOL.

The first step, we need to start stomping on people who flex their epeens about a particular training path. Every time someone spouts off about how pilot from XYZ way of training is the bane of the industry, the collective needs to stomp that crap out. We really need to come together as a group and be a lot A LOT more supportive of everyone, regardless of path taken

As long as we continue to draw a line in the sand and try to alienate people we aren't going to get anywhere. Here is the hint, if you find yourself saying or thinking or preaching that "I did this, this way and those that don't are a burden in the cockpit" YOU are part of the problem.


Ok, rant over. I'll start on the other facets;

I went from instructing to 121 regional to 121 supp cargo to air ambulance. I never thought I would end up in air ambulance, all the 135 on demand horror stories. I have to admit, this is the best job by far. I am home every day, I maybe fly 30 hours a month, two to four legs a day MAX. I do all my own planning and coordination (flight side whise).

I get to fly a well maintained, fairly good performing little airplane. On top of all that, I get to make just a tiny little difference in people's lives.

What I have found, the little bit of experience I got while I was training, is nothing compared to the continued education I strive for on a daily basis. Flying an airplane is easy, making performance and operational decisions is easy (hell the OpSpecs and GOM spell out almost everything), being able to think on your feet, make tough decisions based on safety first, etc. Those are the things a pilot needs.

Here's the deal here, and it's a good one to note: You, like I, have a wide breadth of experience in aviation gigs beyond entry-level. That's a great thing to have in order to realize that there's more to flying than just 121 (or for that matter, JUST 135, or JUST military, etc, etc). Following entry level in traffic watch, I flew 135 single/multi VFR/IFR cargo ops, then military for a long time in fighters (still do it part time in rescue in the reserves), now chase illegals around the desert as both a pilot as well as a air tactical member. In doing so, I've been able to see and experience a number of different parts of aviation or aviation-related gigs (what I do now is LE, but the aviation side of it). Guys that only focus on one part of aviation.....SJSers come to mind.......are really missing out on what other potential is out there. Of course, if they're low-timers, they may not have any other choice. Be that as it may, never feel you're stuck doing something, because you aren't. There are probably any number of guys in the regionals who would love to come over and do what I'm doing. Then there are probably an equal number who are SJSers who would scoff at being in a helo, tooling low level through the mountains and brush chasing people and/or performing rescues. Then too, there are probably another equal number who wouldn't like the job becase they're not ONLY flying (not wanting to be the guy in back with the weapon who gets dropped off and has to chase people). It really all depends.

Just make an informed decision before you ever feel "forced" to stick it out at any regional where your QOL sucks, or you're making beans and tying to make ends meet.

 

[husky16]

Just curious- did not have time to read whole post. Is it gonna be 1500tt or ATP req'd for FO?

 

[meyers9163]

Just curious- did not have time to read whole post. Is it gonna be 1500tt or ATP req'd for FO?

No I believe its BOTH.....

 

[JoelT]

"I'm a little bit nervous about this," said Mike Loftus, a former Continental pilot whose daughter, Maddy, died in the crash. "If it were anybody other than Randy Babbitt in that job, I would be worried" that the flight-hours requirement would be genuinely weakened.

Mike was very well liked at Expressjet and those of us who know him were very saddened by his loss. I have confidence in him that he will not let this go. He is a man that can get things done.

 

[v1valarob]

I wish the government would understand this! What good is 1500 hours of doing slow flight and stalls in a 172 gonna do for you when you get to flying a jet...

Not to be a dick, but you realize what the unofficial cause of Colgan 3407 was right? The cause of all this change right?