Owner Mentality

Socal321

New Member
What is up with these operators that are against their CFIs leaving when they've found a pt135 or 121 job? I was talking with one the other day and was talking about CFIing while being furloughed. He didn't like it that once they get their recall they just split..... WELL YEA THAT'S THE WHOLE IDEA! What would they do in our shoes? I would imagine not keeping CFIs for too long would benefit them no?
 
What is up with these operators that are against their CFIs leaving when they've found a pt135 or 121 job? I was talking with one the other day and was talking about CFIing while being furloughed. He didn't like it that once they get their recall they just split..... WELL YEA THAT'S THE WHOLE IDEA! What would they do in our shoes? I would imagine not keeping CFIs for too long would benefit them no?

Compensation directly determines retention.
 
What is up with these operators that are against their CFIs leaving when they've found a pt135 or 121 job? I was talking with one the other day and was talking about CFIing while being furloughed. He didn't like it that once they get their recall they just split..... WELL YEA THAT'S THE WHOLE IDEA! What would they do in our shoes?

I would never hold it against a CFI for leaving...but I wouldn't hire them in the first place if I knew they weren't planning to stick around for long. It's nothing personal. It's just that short term arrangements with quick and unexpected endings aren't desirable from an employer's perspective.

Your post makes it sound as though your employment is a one way street, and it's all about you. It's almost as though you're entitled to a job where you can do whatever you want.

Life doesn't work that way. You have your interests and employers have theirs. Don't be a hater just because an employer's interests don't line up with yours.

I would imagine not keeping CFIs for too long would benefit them no?

No, high turnover is almost always a bad thing. It takes work to train new employees. It also damages customer service if there is a revolving door for staff. Quality control also goes down. I can't think of any up-sides to such an arrangement.

Compensation directly determines retention.

Not quite, but it does play a big role.
 
Not quite, but it does play a big role.

If I didn't make 13k a year I wouldn't actively at any opportunity be looking for another job. I don't have the time yet to fly 135 yet, but when I do I will peace out the first opportunity I have for at the very least 10k increase in salary. I have a pretty chill boss and my co-workers are awesome but that doesn't mean squat when I commute 3 hours round trip a day just to live the dream. The ladies at the front desk answering phone calls make more money then I, all while working about 20 hours a week less.

You seem like a great dude JRH and probably an good boss so don't take this as me bagging on you. If you pay your employees fair, and when I mean fair I don't mean the market value as that is practically next to nothing then :beer: to you. If not I don't care how good of a dude you are and boss if I can make more money with a better QoL I'm outta der. Others however may be different.
 
You seem like a great dude JRH and probably an good boss so don't take this as me bagging on you. If you pay your employees fair, and when I mean fair I don't mean the market value as that is practically next to nothing then :beer: to you. If not I don't care how good of a dude you are and boss if I can make more money with a better QoL I'm outta der. Others however may be different.


Here is what is wrong with the industry today. A sense of entitlement. You probably are makeing a good hourly wage, but you aren't busy enough. You said in another forum that you had started to CFI around the same time I did. I have managed to make a decent year for myself this year CFI'ing, but has to work two jobs. How do you expect the boss to pay you well, then they aren't makeign all that much money in the first place. Would you like to be salary, makeing 30-35k a year? Then do an honest 8 hours of work per day, or charge your students fr every bit of you time. If I am going to have to log onto a CPC computer, I am going to charge. If I am going to talk a students ear of for the next hour about airworthiness, collision avoidence, wx, or whatever, I am going to charge. If the student has blocked off my schedule for two hours, he is going to get charged for two hours, and I am going to use up everybit of those two hours weather it is with the student, or handleing tasks associated with that student.

You are a professional, charge accrodingly, not what you think may be "fair." And, your hourly rate should have nothing to do with the time you bill.
 
Here is what is wrong with the industry today. A sense of entitlement.

You bet...I worked my ass of to be where I am at. I'm a professional and should be treated like one.

You probably are makeing a good hourly wage, but you aren't busy enough.

I make 20 hr out of the 50 he charges to the customer. No I'm not busy enough but the flight school expects you to be there customers or not. Also even though I never signed a no compete clause they hold us to one.

Would you like to be salary, makeing 30-35k a year?

For the work I do. I would say that is fair.
 
I make 20 hr out of the 50 he charges to the customer. No I'm not busy enough but the flight school expects you to be there customers or not. Also even though I never signed a no compete clause they hold us to one.


Well, you never said that. Time to see if you can CFI somewhere else. I hope the maint. is atleast good....


I just quit the second job because of reasons like this. The first one doesn't care if I do outside stuff. The second one did, even though I was a "contract" employee, who had never signed a contract.
 
...charge your students fr every bit of you time. If I am going to have to log onto a CPC computer, I am going to charge. If I am going to talk a students ear of for the next hour about airworthiness, collision avoidence, wx, or whatever, I am going to charge. If the student has blocked off my schedule for two hours, he is going to get charged for two hours, and I am going to use up everybit of those two hours weather it is with the student, or handleing tasks associated with that student.

You are a professional, charge accrodingly, not what you think may be "fair." And, your hourly rate should have nothing to do with the time you bill.
Every CFI applicant should have to print this out and make it real big and plaster it all over their ceiling/wall/notebook.

-mini
 
I had a student question the way I charge one time. She decided to show up 15 min late every-time and by the time she preflight / briefed she was already 45 min into her lesson. We flew for an hour and then talked for about 15-20 afterwards. Adding up to two hours of my time. She then had the balls to call me out on overcharging her.

Funny thing is even after this conversation she still shows up late and I still charge her.
 
No I'm not busy enough but the flight school expects you to be there customers or not. .

There's gotta be a law somewhere that states an employer can't force you to be somewhere and not compensate you for it...
 
There's gotta be a law somewhere that states an employer can't force you to be somewhere and not compensate you for it...

Maryland has this sweet law where you can be fired for anything w/o even a reason.
 
If I didn't make 13k a year I wouldn't actively at any opportunity be looking for another job. I don't have the time yet to fly 135 yet, but when I do I will peace out the first opportunity I have for at the very least 10k increase in salary. I have a pretty chill boss and my co-workers are awesome but that doesn't mean squat when I commute 3 hours round trip a day just to live the dream. The ladies at the front desk answering phone calls make more money then I, all while working about 20 hours a week less.

Why don't you should ask to work at the front desk answering phones then?

If you're disgruntled with your job, that's a personal issue I can't help you much with.

I was only speaking to the idea that compensation directly determines retention. It doesn't. It's a big piece of the puzzle, but it's not the only piece. If it were the only piece, everybody would jump ship at the first opportunity that paid more. In the real world, that doesn't happen. People value elements of their work beyond the paycheck.

I'll use myself as an example. I make about $30k/year, give or take a little. I have no doubt I could get a job somewhere else making $40k/year. But I like where I live, I like my schedule, I like the people I work with, and frankly, I'm quite comfortable with my life at the moment. Therefore, I'm not interested in shuffling it all around for the sake of an extra $10k/year.

Clearly, compensation does not *directly* correlate to retention. It only influences it. See what I mean?

You seem like a great dude JRH and probably an good boss so don't take this as me bagging on you. If you pay your employees fair, and when I mean fair I don't mean the market value as that is practically next to nothing then :beer: to you.

Our instructors start at $18/hour and can move up several dollars/hour over time as long as they perform well. I don't know if you consider that to be "fair" or not, but it is what it is. The longer I work is this industry, the more I consider it to be a reasonable starting wage.

If not I don't care how good of a dude you are and boss if I can make more money with a better QoL I'm outta der.

That's fine. As I said in my first post, I wouldn't hold it against an instructor personally for wanting to move on to a different job. But you need to see it from management's perspective as well. If an employee is quick to jump ship, I'd prefer not to have them to start with. What's wrong with that?
 
Why don't you should ask to work at the front desk answering phones then?

If you're disgruntled with your job, that's a personal issue I can't help you much with.

I was only speaking to the idea that compensation directly determines retention. It doesn't. It's a big piece of the puzzle, but it's not the only piece. If it were the only piece, everybody would jump ship at the first opportunity that paid more. In the real world, that doesn't happen. People value elements of their work beyond the paycheck.

I'll use myself as an example. I make about $30k/year, give or take a little. I have no doubt I could get a job somewhere else making $40k/year. But I like where I live, I like my schedule, I like the people I work with, and frankly, I'm quite comfortable with my life at the moment. Therefore, I'm not interested in shuffling it all around for the sake of an extra $10k/year.

Clearly, compensation does not *directly* correlate to retention. It only influences it. See what I mean?



Our instructors start at $18/hour and can move up several dollars/hour over time as long as they perform well. I don't know if you consider that to be "fair" or not, but it is what it is. The longer I work is this industry, the more I consider it to be a reasonable starting wage.



That's fine. As I said in my first post, I wouldn't hold it against an instructor personally for wanting to move on to a different job. But you need to see it from management's perspective as well. If an employee is quick to jump ship, I'd prefer not to have them to start with. What's wrong with that?

I left a job where I would have pulled in over $45,000 last year to come to Juneau and make about $35 to $40k because I wanted the opportunity to learn more stuff, fly different things, and live someplace I liked. I also wanted to be someplace that I felt like was going places. That's the key for me anyway. Good place to live + Reasonable Wage + Job I take Satisfaction in + Opportunity for Growth = Get New Job.

The sum of those factors has to be in excess of the old job for me to move. Money alone won't do it, unless its a lot (a really big pile) of money.
 
I'll use myself as an example. I make about $30k/year, give or take a little. I have no doubt I could get a job somewhere else making $40k/year....[but] I'm not interested in shuffling it all around for the sake of an extra $10k/year.

Bad example really. When you're talking about the difference between $30k and $40k, you're talking the difference between eating out and eating in.

What most CFIs are talking about is the difference between $15k and anything more. That's a question of whether you can pay the utility bills.
 
Do you happen to have a link to it?
No, but my attorney probably does. Either that or she was just giving me legal advice based on nothing but "good ideas".

...I doubt that, however. She's my wife's cousin.

I'll visit Mr. Google and see what I can dig up. Failing that, I'll give her a call Monday to see if she can help us out with that. The advice she gave me was that if I was going to tell instructors they had to be at the airport from x to y, I had to pay them minimum wage or better the entire time they were there. I could certainly pay them an "override" for instruction billed, but I was responsible for minimum wage, too.

As a result, we didn't require anyone to be at the airport at any time...just ran the show myself. If someone was available, they flew. If not, they didn't. Didn't matter to me.

-mini
 
Bad example really. When you're talking about the difference between $30k and $40k, you're talking the difference between eating out and eating in.

What most CFIs are talking about is the difference between $15k and anything more. That's a question of whether you can pay the utility bills.

My point still stands. There are *always* more factors in retention than strictly pay...even if a person is making $15k/year.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying CFIs deserve low pay, or aren't worth more, or anything like that. I'm only trying to disprove the notion that "If you pay them more, they'll stick around." I wish staffing was that simple, but it's not.
 
My point still stands. There are *always* more factors in retention than strictly pay...even if a person is making $15k/year.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying CFIs deserve low pay, or aren't worth more, or anything like that. I'm only trying to disprove the notion that "If you pay them more, they'll stick around." I wish staffing was that simple, but it's not.
This is true.

-mini
 
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