The people you meet
- Thread starter surreal1221
- Start date
While I feel for those who have lost their pension, I agree with your sentiments 100%. A company really owes no employee anything more than the wage they pay you for your work, and should not be obligated to continue paying anyone, once that employee is long gone, and no longer providing a service to that company. People need to stop expecting and relying on their company to fund their retirement. It is not the companies responsibility to ensure you are careful with your own money, and not the companies fault, if at 60, you have not a dime to your name.
E_Dawg
Moderator
Uh, it's the overall compensation package. A lot more goes in to working for a company than just your hourly wage. Benefits, travel, med, dental, 401(k), days off, vac time, work rules, etc etc. If you were hired and promised a pension plan, why would you NOT include that in your financial life plan...
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I doubt there's a lot of company's out there that are gonna offer a pension plan AND a healthy 401k. Like E_Dawg said, pension is part of the overall compnesation. If you get a pension, then I'd expect my hourly rate to be reduced to the point where I would be making with a comparable 401k plan. To tell someone that's been flying for an airline or working for a company 30+ years building a pension "Sorry, you shoulda seen it coming and planned better" if it gets yanked in bankruptcy is purely asinine. If the company is doing well for 28 of those years, then hits trouble do you expect these people to scramble the last 2 years to make up for their losses?
Now, if you don't have a pension plan with your company and your retirement is of your own making, I agree with the sentiment that you have only yourself to blame. But to say people shouldn't count on something that's been promised them and instead save on their own just in case is wrong.
Now, if you don't have a pension plan with your company and your retirement is of your own making, I agree with the sentiment that you have only yourself to blame. But to say people shouldn't count on something that's been promised them and instead save on their own just in case is wrong.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Marcus, I'll put it to ya this way. If all of a sudden 1 million dollars disappeared from your financial plan, how would you cope? Our family has planed for the past 20 years that when my dad retires that there would be a ~1 million dollar pension there when he decided to retire at 59 1/2, and pay out of pocket for 2.5 years of COBRA. That pension got 'frozen' as if he retired at 52, valued close to 200,000. At that time he had 8 years to make 800,000 in a 401k type program, damn near impossible. How else do you make that 800,000 back, and pay for cobra? Work longer is the only way. His new plan is to retire on his 62nd birthday, because there is no other way for him to afford to retire. Simple as that.
Good story man.
It's pretty much like how I ended up being a senior ER FO. It certainly wasn't because of expansion because Southernjets certainly took every opportunity outsource flying or codeshare, it was largely because people retired, en masse, during the bankruptcy process.
I would have had a full retirement at 52 and I wasn't going to let the door hit me in the tookus on the way out. But now, of course, that projection is a little bit different now. Not that I don't enjoy what I do, but it would have been nice to have both a full retirement AND my relative youth to enjoy it with.
You know, some dreads, a goatee and be running around some tropical island at 0400 trying to see if the Bahamians have anything that can sate "the munchies" as good as Cheetoes!
I don't know, I digress. Lots and lots and lots of reported posts and drama, but a boy can dream.
It's pretty much like how I ended up being a senior ER FO. It certainly wasn't because of expansion because Southernjets certainly took every opportunity outsource flying or codeshare, it was largely because people retired, en masse, during the bankruptcy process.
I would have had a full retirement at 52 and I wasn't going to let the door hit me in the tookus on the way out. But now, of course, that projection is a little bit different now. Not that I don't enjoy what I do, but it would have been nice to have both a full retirement AND my relative youth to enjoy it with.
You know, some dreads, a goatee and be running around some tropical island at 0400 trying to see if the Bahamians have anything that can sate "the munchies" as good as Cheetoes!
I don't know, I digress. Lots and lots and lots of reported posts and drama, but a boy can dream.
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
Meet my "Retirement Home!"
Attachments
That is why I stated I felt for the guys who have lost their pension. I realize they had planned for it. They were promised this. However, things have changed for everybody else. Companies, not just airline companies, are doing away with pensions. It is now up to the employee to handle their finances responsibly, and plan for their retirement. I think the days of expecting your company to fund your retirement are over.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
I'll put it this way, I would not place the majority of my post retirement planning on my "pension" When companies run into financial trouble one of the first things that goes is the pension. There's no such thing as a "promised pension" Especially in front of a bankruptcy judge.
People have to get out of this "the company will take care of me" mentality and really focus learning how money works and achieving financial freedom. Or else you'll just end up like most people, chasing paycheck after paycheck til you die.
Someone making 50k over 30 years can easily retire a multi-millionaire. Let alone a 30 year Airline veteran. I was depending on my pension is a poor excuse for someone not to have little or no other retirement income saved.
Please man, don't take this as an insult, but unless you're juggling a mortgage, a preggers wife and other family-related financial challenges, it's a little uhh "early" to preach about how easy financial planning is.
Life happens. Trust me, I had all the answers in my 20's and none of 'em in my 30's. Primarily because I realized that (a) I don't have children (b) I didn't have a lot of college debt and (c) I have the blessings of being a DINK. I have a different perspective and requisite pressures as a DINK and relatively young for my career position than say, a 57 year old junior airline captain with kids in college and perhaps a family member with medical challenges.
I'd suggest spending a little time with some old school captains with kids approaching college age, or family with medical problems on the "new and improved" health coverage. It'd give a whole different perspective on the "make $50G's and retire a millionaire".
Life happens. Trust me, I had all the answers in my 20's and none of 'em in my 30's. Primarily because I realized that (a) I don't have children (b) I didn't have a lot of college debt and (c) I have the blessings of being a DINK. I have a different perspective and requisite pressures as a DINK and relatively young for my career position than say, a 57 year old junior airline captain with kids in college and perhaps a family member with medical challenges.
I'd suggest spending a little time with some old school captains with kids approaching college age, or family with medical problems on the "new and improved" health coverage. It'd give a whole different perspective on the "make $50G's and retire a millionaire".
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Oh its not easy. It takes strict financial discipline and not giving into your emotions. And all of those situations you mentioned outside of (serious medical challenge in the family) are decisions that adults make and should take responsibility for. I'm a 23 year old 2nd yr FO. Should I go out, get married, have a kid, get a mortgage and be in debt up to my eyes and proclaim "life happens"?
Stuff like this is why the US Economy is in such a mess right now. Most adults don't really understand money and how it works. Not their fault though, it isn't taught in school. What is taught is study hard, and get a good secure job(an oxymoron IMO).
You wouldn't believe how many Capts I've flown with that wish they knew about 401ks, compounding interest, and real assets. Instead what most people know is mortgages, car payments, taxes, etc. Instead of getting a car loan on the latest model car imagine if you just got a car you could afford to pay for cash and invest the money you would have paid on a depreciating "asset" (quotes because its not really an asset buy liability). There is a reason the rich get richer and poor and middle class continue to struggle in debt.
Now I'm not saying not to enjoy the nicer things in life, just that Americans in general need to learn to live within their means. If you make 100k dont go into debt to live in a 200k lifestyle. The foundation has to be set early. Like early 20's. If not you'll spend a lifetime catching up because as you said "Life happens"
E_Dawg
Moderator
Sorry dude, I want to throw up just reading that. I'm 24 and not the greatest with $$$ but do have a basic understanding. I also realize that 'crap' happens. It's not just that you think you have it all figured out, but you seem to not even realize the great equalizer that chance and luck can be in the great game of life.
Your post makes me wonder if you've ever paid for anything yourself at all. Flight training, school, mortgage, even rent, etc?? Bills add up fast and 50k/ yr does not go far at all. I don't mean to come down on you personally, rather I simply disagree with what you are saying.
Your post makes me wonder if you've ever paid for anything yourself at all. Flight training, school, mortgage, even rent, etc?? Bills add up fast and 50k/ yr does not go far at all. I don't mean to come down on you personally, rather I simply disagree with what you are saying.
CFIscare
Well-Known Member
IMO, there are people who can retire at a younger age. There are people who can't. Just because they can't doesn't mean they lived their lives recklessly. Stuff happens. Stuff you can't predict. Just because you can't get to your dream job as soon as you like, doesn't mean you have to blame the people who currently have that job. IMO, pay your dues. They already have.
No, however, that hot date you had last weekend can turn up pregnant from a prophylactic failure.
Or you could get back from a trip and have your wife say she's having leg pain and discover she's got Deep Vein Thrombosis.
Life is random, and, from what I've read about almost like planning a battle. Lots of plans, straight lines of battle and clear objectives, but when that first shot rings out, those plans go out the window.
One of the things my dad taught me before he died was that indeed, you have to plan for the future, but live in the present and realize that life is always going to be a slurry of unanticipated events, both good and bad. Some you can plan for and others you can only just react to.
Trust me, life will always catch you by surprise. In a wonderful way at times and often times in the most unfortunate, unpredictable way as well. I don't know man, one month you're in Madrid drinking beers with a in shape, funny as hell, healthy Marine and a few months having him suddenly die gives a different perspective on the predictability of our life's course.
Best of luck.
Or you could get back from a trip and have your wife say she's having leg pain and discover she's got Deep Vein Thrombosis.
Life is random, and, from what I've read about almost like planning a battle. Lots of plans, straight lines of battle and clear objectives, but when that first shot rings out, those plans go out the window.
One of the things my dad taught me before he died was that indeed, you have to plan for the future, but live in the present and realize that life is always going to be a slurry of unanticipated events, both good and bad. Some you can plan for and others you can only just react to.
Trust me, life will always catch you by surprise. In a wonderful way at times and often times in the most unfortunate, unpredictable way as well. I don't know man, one month you're in Madrid drinking beers with a in shape, funny as hell, healthy Marine and a few months having him suddenly die gives a different perspective on the predictability of our life's course.
Best of luck.
dc3flyer
Well-Known Member
Orange Anchor
New Member
That sure covers a lot of territory. Illness in families. Taking care of elderly parents. Not just events within the nuclear family.
Orange Anchor
New Member
That would be an accurate assessment if the carrier never expanded. But each airplane inbound used to account for about 7 crews.
So, some get their seats due to increase in fleet size.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Right, he mentioned that as well. He called that a variable component, and really didn't give much credence to it considering that it was variable and depended on the time period.
The only constant was people leaving, either through retirement and/or death.
More of that Pro-Management Aviation Management undergraduate degree coming out of ya.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're the first person in your family to be in the pilot profession, much less the American aviation industry. That said, some of us grew up in a family of airline people from pilots to mechanics to flight attendants. Some of us have close family members who, when they were hired, were provided with certain benefits and retirement plans. Now, if you can honestly say that if you were hired by a company in the late 1970's, and they told you you'd be able to retire with 1million+ in the bank, and then they are able - due to pro-corporation bankruptcy laws - steal it from you two years from retirement that you'd be just fine with that I'm left only to call you out on it.
It's a generational thing Marcus, not an individual thing. Americans are hard workers, and they expected their companies to take care of them by safe work environments, proper pay for their skills, and appropriate benefits - to include retirement if they gave the company the better portion of their life. It seems though some within out generation believe it's okay for a company to snatch everything they tell you up with one signature of a Judge. That is a crying shame and a primary reason why our generation will have a significantly more difficult time trying to simply live a happy life.
So yes, our generation is different and we have a wonderful opportunity to do things differently (not better) than previous generations. We know that social security benefits will not be there. We know that companies have decided to go away from pension programs because they're too costly. We know that the only source of real income during retirement for 85% of present day retirees is full time employment. We know that we need to be smart with our money, today and tomorrow. So what's left? To do it. Philosophical ramblings about how you're so wise at such a young age about financial decisions doesn't really mean jack when you're 64 1/2 and spent every dime you had.
That'd first require finding a woman, not a girl, who could put up with you.
:cwm27:
As far as you rushing out to get married, have a kid, get a mortgage, blah blah blah. . .no one cares. It appears you still fail to realize that people do indeed live with their own choices, void of what some young stud who jet-sets off to exotic places on a regular basis says on the internet.
We're all individuals, free to make our own decisions. Some make poor ones, some make great ones. The only true judge is the individual who actually has to live with the outcome.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Tons of companies are doing away with A-Fund pensions, but B-Fund pensions are still quite common. In fact, most companies that eliminate A-Funds are replacing them with B-Funds.
Companies should always provide for retirement, as far as I'm concerned. B-Funds may be the better way to do that, as the money is in your name rather than the name of a huge pension fund, but the company should still provide it rather than the employee being stuck to fend for himself on a salary that is already not keeping up with inflation thanks to the "wonders" of American capitalism.
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
I have thought that same thought often, everyone I personally know at a major has been there 20 years or so.