Why Lear and not Cessna

jtrain609 said:
in my experience, which involves training people to fly single pilot, doing a bit of it myself and then flying in a crew environment) having two pilots is safer.
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What you mean you crashed less when you were part of a crew?

You know, if 2 pilots are safer than 1, then surely 3 would be safer than 2. And then I suppose it follows that 4 would be safer than 3...

I think we should all just fly the same plane around, together. Maximum safety. I call dibs on the captain's spot. If you don't support my scheme, you're a baby-murderer who cares more about profits than safety.
 
Boris Badenov said:
What you mean you crashed less when you were part of a crew?

You know, if 2 pilots are safer than 1, then surely 3 would be safer than 2. And then I suppose it follows that 4 would be safer than 3...

I think we should all just fly the same plane around, together. Maximum safety. I call dibs on the captain's spot. If you don't support my scheme, you're a baby-murderer who cares more about profits than safety.
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Cute, but the line you're discussing is asymptotic in regard to where your cost/benefit starts to drop off. Or said another way, you eventually reach the point of diminishing returns.

It's probably somewhere around 2-3 pilots, if I had to take a stab at it.

Oh and I didn't personally crash any airplanes into mountains, but the company I worked for did. Now, in the defense of the company, they worked to change what went wrong so that it wouldn't happen again. I've gotta commend the guys that were in the flight department at Amflight at the time; they were really interested in making sure their pilots had all the tools they needed to be as safe as possible. Unfortunately all those guys are gone now.
 
jtrain609 said:
Cute, but the line you're discussing is asymptotic in regard to where your cost/benefit starts to drop off. Or said another way, you eventually reach the point of diminishing returns.
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How can there be diminishing return in SAFETY? If it saves one more life, isn't it worth it? Can you really put a price on human life?
 
Now I KNOW you're not being serious :)

There is in fact a diminishing return on safety in this regard. I.E. Too many chiefs, not enough indians eh?
 
jtrain609 said:
Are you guys really debating whether one pilot is safer than two, what when we're talking about everything else being equal? I.E. Training to the type of operation being the same, equipment being the same, yada yada?

It's a no brainer, two pilots are safer than one. Amflight has a pretty good record of guys that made real simple mistakes being put into mountains because there wasn't somebody there to check their work.

Somebody else being there, watching you like a hawk, is why (IMO, and in my experience, which involves training people to fly single pilot, doing a bit of it myself and then flying in a crew environment) having two pilots is safer.
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I know you also remember that one of the most notable crashes at AMF was in a 2 crew enviroment. ;)

I'm not arguing that a properly trained 1 pilot operation is just as safe as a properly trained 2 crew operations more than I'm arguing that there a lot of variables that go into play that should be considered.

Crew experience, automation, speed of the aircraft.

I remember once having an FO completely panic because we only didn't get 3 green lights with the gear handle in down position on an ILS approach. I could barely get the guy to retract the flaps and run the proper checklist when we begin to execute the missed. I would have had a whole lot easier time if I would have been flying the run by myself that night. He was just slowing the process down. The bad part about it was that he had more time in the plane then I did.:o
 
MikeD said:
If the FAA would only cert the Lear 23/24 for single pilot, man that'd be fun.
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:yeahthat:

All things being equal I'd prefer two pilots and IMO it is safer. Also when I flew 421 pax paid extra to have a second pilot up front 9 times out of time. It is a comfort factor for them. I've flown single pilot IFR and it isn't easy and life would be easier with an FO.
 
Training environment, actually.

And you can't include the commercial FO's at Amflight in this discussion. They're PFTers, paying to be there, and I'd say most of them don't just suck at flying, they suck at life.

Let's go ahead and compare Amflight to a Part 121 airline environment.

Mike's also got some interesting experience in flying single pilot, then in a crew environment in the Lear, and now flying larger equipment by himself. I like hearing his input on the issue.

But that being said, after working in Amflight's system, and then working in a part 121 airline system, the difference is night and day as far as safey is concerned.

Want specifics? You're gonna have to hit me up at the bar sometime. I know we all like to talk about how big our balls are, and believe me I've done enough of that myself, but when you take a step back from it, a two crew environment is much safer than a single pilot operation.
 
jtrain609 said:
Now I KNOW you're not being serious :)

There is in fact a diminishing return on safety in this regard. I.E. Too many chiefs, not enough indians eh?
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What gave me away? I don't think anyone is arguing that single pilot is "safer" than two crew. I see two sides "arguing" here, and they're not really talking to each other. One is saying "two crew is safer". The other is saying "By the very nature of the comparison, it's apples and oranges, plus there are a million other factors that go in to the safety of the flight, including the dynamic between the two crew members, and you can't really make categorical statements about things with so many variables, or at least you look kind of ridiculous when you do."

Then, also... "If it increases Safety (this amorphous concept), it doesn't matter how much it costs". Not only is that on its face a ludicrous statement, but the methods being used to argue it are logically fallacious.
 
Boris Badenov said:
What gave me away? I don't think anyone is arguing that single pilot is "safer" than two crew. I see two sides "arguing" here, and they're not really talking to each other. One is saying "two crew is safer". The other is saying "By the very nature of the comparison, it's apples and oranges, plus there are a million other factors that go in to the safety of the flight, including the dynamic between the two crew members, and you can't really make categorical statements about things with so many variables, or at least you look kind of ridiculous when you do."

Then, also... "If it increases Safety (this amorphous concept), it doesn't matter how much it costs". Not only is that on its face a ludicrous statement, but the methods being used to argue it are logically fallacious.
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I don't believe I made the mistake of extending the categorical imperative of safety to an infinite regress, but if you got that impression then I apologize because that wasn't my intent. There isn't a theoretical limit on maximizing safety, but there's certainly a practical one. As I said earlier, I think probably falls somewhere between 2-3 guys up front, but as I also said earlier, that's just a guess.

Further, and as I said earlier, if you want specific examples about why I think what I do, then you'll have to catch me at the bar. The last thing I'm going to do is explain the details of any possible transgressions across the FAR's while operating an aircraft. To do so would be an outright lie on my part (I've never intentionally violated an FAR, of course), and it would also be fairly stupid to do on a public forum eh?

So in the end communication on the issue presents a problem in such a large, public arena such as this forum, with 10,000+ members and who knows how many more people lurking. But let me say again, after teaching in a part 135 training department, being trained on single pilot operations myself, and then teaching others how to do it, and then making the transition to a part 121 environment with two well trained pilots up front, there is no discussion. Simply put, having two guys up front is safer than having one. I know single pilot operators LOVE to talk about how they're amazing pilots, lovers and chefs, and about how they never make mistakes, and don't need anybody else there to make them safer, but it's a facade and I think we know that much.

So until you want to meet me in the bar so we can compare notes, this probably won't go anywhere :)
 
I said, given the current context of the discussion, we can't discuss this. But yes, you're wrong. I could explain to you why, but, I'd have to do it in a place where I can do shots of Jager while drinking non 3.2 beer.

Until you can provide such a setting, I'll continue to commend you on your approach, but remind you that yes, you are in fact wrong :)
 
jtrain609 said:
I said, given the current context of the discussion, we can't discuss this. But yes, you're wrong. I could explain to you why, but, I'd have to do it in a place where I can do shots of Jager while drinking non 3.2 beer.
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You still have passtravel, right? I've got just the place in mind. I'll even pick you up at Lambert, but since I'll be massively hungover from drinking you under the table, you're going to have to roll off the futon and take the metro back out on your own. :)

...remind you that yes, you are in fact wrong :)
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No you. YOU. YOU ARE WRONG! I am RIGHT!@ ;)
 
Single pilot ops aren't that difficult or unsafe, IMHO. I've flown single pilot nearly all my career, from cargo to military, and while it can get taxing at times, it isn't unsafe. Having been in the cockpit of a number of Lears, they don't appear that difficult to fly single pilot so long as the pilot can reach everything he needs. Only flown in the 35 version, and it seemed the same.
 
MikeD said:
Single pilot ops aren't that difficult or unsafe, IMHO. I've flown single pilot nearly all my career, from cargo to military, and while it can get taxing at times, it isn't unsafe. Having been in the cockpit of a number of Lears, they don't appear that difficult to fly single pilot so long as the pilot can reach everything he needs. Only flown in the 35 version, and it seemed the same.
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You're dangerous!
 
400A said:
I know where you going, but I will play along.

If you can afford a 5 or 6 million dollar jet, you can afford the second pilot. Unless we are going to make the argument that one pilot is more safe than two.
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I cant really add anymore to the thread... but your avatar is awesome!
 
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