"Airline Internship" at ATP?

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Counselor said:
Well, I wouldn't blame anyone. The fact of the matter is, legions of people still want to be airline pilots. And legions of people are willing to work for little, for free, and even pay to get the experience they need for a shot at the dream job. It's just the way it is.

Now, at the end of 2007 and beginning of 2008, there was a hint that there might actually be a pilot shortage. It started. When flight schools could not train students because all of their CFI's were sucked into the regionals, do you know what happened? Flight schools were forced to pay CFI's real wages, and induced them to come (and stay) will real benefits! Without enough CFI's to train students, and without enough newly minted commercial pilots (because of the CFI shortage), the regionals might actually have been forced to compete against each other for talent. Competition breeds better salaries, benefits, QOL.

It didn't get to that point because the oil spike killed that very exciting time for the industry, and we are back where we seem to always be in the airline industry. But without that oil spike (and of course this recession), how good might things be?

Nobody's training now, and nobody's lending for students to train. What's gonna happen in 3-4 years when the age 65'ers are forced to retire, and there is no one to backfill the current regional pilots who migrate to the majors? Might we pick up where we left off mid-2008? Honestly, the regionals may have a very real staffing problem. And as the world economy rebounds and Asia and Africa start begging for pilots again, demand will soar - helping everyone.

My own optimistic economic predictions aside, my point is for pilots, this industry rises and falls with supply and demand. Economics drives everything. In the grand scheme of things, paying for 250 hours as "training" or however Gulfstreamers justify it before becoming a "real" FO for Gulfstream Airlines is a blip when compared to the enormous economic forces that control pilot destinies.
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I think too often on these forums so many people get too fixed on one issue about pilot QOL that they can't see the big picture. It's like the people who vote for canidates solely based on their capital punishment stance (single issue voter). There are a lot of things at play here isn't there? As a pilot still working on his ratings I can tell you that these boards have done a fantastic job of shooting down any feeling of hope for the future pilot.
 
DenverPilot8 said:
I think too often on these forums so many people get too fixed on one issue about pilot QOL that they can't see the big picture. It's like the people who vote for canidates solely based on their capital punishment stance (single issue voter). There are a lot of things at play here isn't there? As a pilot still working on his ratings I can tell you that these boards have done a fantastic job of shooting down any feeling of hope for the future pilot.
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After about 6 months in 121, the only thing that matters is QOL.

6 months of big cool jet vs 35 years of QOL. That's why everyone who's been there talks about QOL. QOL is the big picture.
 
Clocks said:
After about 6 months in 121, the only thing that matters is QOL.

6 months of big cool jet vs 35 years of QOL. That's why everyone who's been there talks about QOL. QOL is the big picture.
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Sorry, I did not mean to imply that QOL was a bad focus. Infact I think QOL as you said IS the most improtant thing with any job. I just meant that there isn't just one thing that can affect QOL for a pilot.
 
Counselor said:
Great Lakes and Gulfstream and Lynx and New Mexico Airlines and Pac Wings are all the same thing = training platforms. That some have a temporary negative cash flow on the FO (Gulfstream), and some have have a barely registered positive cash flow for the FO (Great Lakes, etc.), is a distinction without a difference. New Mexico Airlines pays $8 per hour, and the pilots throw bags and work the ticket counters! But they have no PFJ stigma? That's not embarrassing?
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Working for $8 an hour, should be embeaarssing.

Counselor said:
Nobody's training now, and nobody's lending for students to train. What's gonna happen in 3-4 years when the age 65'ers are forced to retire, and there is no one to backfill the current regional pilots who migrate to the majors? Might we pick up where we left off mid-2008? Honestly, the regionals may have a very real staffing problem. And as the world economy rebounds and Asia and Africa start begging for pilots again, demand will soar - helping everyone.
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I hope your right. But I also think there will always be stiff competition. There was never a pilot shortage, and I don't think it will ever materalize.

DenverPilot8 said:
I think too often on these forums so many people get too fixed on one issue about pilot QOL that they can't see the big picture. It's like the people who vote for canidates solely based on their capital punishment stance (single issue voter). There are a lot of things at play here isn't there? As a pilot still working on his ratings I can tell you that these boards have done a fantastic job of shooting down any feeling of hope for the future pilot.
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Don't let the "Debbie Downers" get to you here. Most people use these forums to complain, and only complain(I hate to say it, but innclude my self in that assesment). Read forums about almost any other industry, and you will hear the same "woah is me" stigma. It's still a good industry to be in, regardless of what you see here. I love my life now. Some one actually pays me to fly!:nana2:
 
8$ an hour? I make 25$ an hour flight instructing, have to be at the school from 8 to 6... 9 hours a day, might only get to bill for 5 to 6 of those hours...
5*25 = 125$ 125/9....
I only make 14$ an hour before taxes...
Some days I make 3$ an hour...
Oh go home you say if there are no students???
Well geez, I'd love to but there are 500 people waiting to have my job... Who would probably do it for free to get the flight hours....
No, you can't have my job!! NO!!!! /me fights the hordes of green zero hour CFI's off with a fuel dip stick...
 
BillH said:
8$ an hour? I make 25$ an hour flight instructing, have to be at the school from 8 to 6... 9 hours a day, might only get to bill for 5 to 6 of those hours...
5*25 = 125$ 125/9....
I only make 14$ an hour before taxes...
Some days I make 3$ an hour...
Oh go home you say if there are no students???
Well geez, I'd love to but there are 500 people waiting to have my job... Who would probably do it for free to get the flight hours....
No, you can't have my job!! NO!!!! /me fights the hordes of green zero hour CFI's off with a fuel dip stick...
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Your at the wrong school man. Some places actually value their employees, and don't require them to be there all day w/out pay. As a matter of fact, I know of one school at CMA, who was sued for makeing their CFI's stay, and not paying them. They won the case, and now get $8 an hour for being there, and get $20 on top of that for every hour of instruction they give.
 
2 years ago, i applied for the private + airline career program at ATP.

sallie mae wanted $960 per month for a 20 year $60K loan.

i obviously couldn't handle that. so, i worked on my credit score and saved up for living expenses.

this week, i applied again and was offered:

private + airline career program + gulfstream, all for $560 per month.

yes, it's an $80K loan, but the payments are almost half for the same term, i will be getting more time, turbo prop time, and still have the option for instructing at ATP.

$560 is still a lot, but i can afford it. and NO, not because i'm some "trust-fund-baby", it's because want to make this work because this is what i want to do.

judging from this board, i'm supposedly just rich, stupid, and inconsiderate for considering this offer.

seems to me, it's a pretty good deal. am i completely blind here?

(and no, i don't work for ATP. i'm just a guy makin' 8 bucks an hour, tryin' to leave my home town)
 
w88manj said:
seems to me, it's a pretty good deal. am i completely blind here?
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If you've read this thread and are still going to pay a company for the privilege of working for them, then there's nothing more to be said. Good luck with your career. I hope you never find yourself unemployed because someone else is willing to pay to do your job. But you'll probably never get slapped in the face like that. What you'll really be doing you won't feel directly, which is contributing to the worst parts of this industry and hurting all of your future colleagues.
 
w88manj said:
private + airline career program + gulfstream, all for $560 per month.

yes, it's an $80K loan, but the payments are almost half for the same term, i will be getting more time, turbo prop time, and still have the option for instructing at ATP.
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54K+ in interest?? Daayuum!!

I dont know if you could find a worse time to be financing 80 boxes of ziti for an aviation gig?!
 
well, i understand the frustration of losing one's job.
several years ago, i myself lost a job of 4 years.
what i also understand is some companies decide to change business models to survive.
maybe my contribution helps keep this airline afloat opening up more job opportunities in a stronger market.

i know others may not see it the way i do,
but i would be paying gulfstream $20K for 250 hours of turboprop.
the same as i would be paying ATP for cessna and seminole time.
the beech 1900 flight time just happens to be for an operating airline.

some may think this is immoral, but why wouldn't you want to do what you can to improve your experience?

ATP only hires CFIs from their graduate pool.
would would my training at ATP be paying my way into a CFI job?
taking jobs away from other CFIs?
ATP may have better connections to airlines than other schools.
would i be paying for the privilege of getting an interview?
paying for an advantage over others?

why does anyone pay for higher education?
isn't that a shortcut up the corporate ladder?
taking jobs away from seasoned veterans?
punishing company loyalty?

why do interns at media companies work for nothing?
aren't they paying at least minimum wage to have the privilege to have experience with that industry, taking jobs away from secretaries.

maybe i am blind, but this just seems like business in America, love it or hate it.

i'm just trying to give my perspective as someone who doesn't have a lot of money but can finance a way to fly for a living. i'm 29 years old and i've worked hard at a lot of unsatisfying jobs. if it means paying to improve my credentials, so be it. college students do it every day.

i'm not trying to offend anyone. and i know that's probably not good enough. and i'm sorry people get laid off. but i'm buying time and they are selling.
 
ryanmickG said:
54K+ in interest?? Daayuum!!

I dont know if you could find a worse time to be financing 80 boxes of ziti for an aviation gig?!
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considering my options 2 years ago ($172K in interest alone)

and for the time i've waited, i'm willing to get my foot in the door.

good thing for "no early payback penalty".
 
If you have to justify your actions so much, then doesn't that tell you that something smells like anchovy poop?
 
w88manj said:
and for the time i've waited, i'm willing to get my foot in the door.
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I'm not telling you not to do it. I have no beef with ATP, and have had the pleasure of flying with some of their grads.

I would probably listen to the 99.9999% of pilots on this board telling you how bad this Gulfstream B.S could be to your career.

Why dont you save the 20K and just do the private+career program??
 
ryanmickG said:
If you have to justify your actions so much, then doesn't that tell you that something smells like anchovy poop?
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:yeahthat:


ryanmickG said:
I'm not telling you not to do it. I have no beef with ATP, and have had the pleasure of flying with some of their grads.

I would probably listen to the 99.9999% of pilots on this board telling you how bad this Gulfstream B.S could be to your career.

Why dont you save the 20K and just do the private+career program??
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:yeahthat: X a bazillion
 
ryanmickG said:
Why dont you save the 20K and just do the private+career program??
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People are not able to get loans for the private+career. Some loans the companies are giving are as high as 14%. For some reason whatever it may be with the addition of the Gulfstream program people are able to get loans and get them at a lower interest rate to start training.

In hindsight I should not have put so much money into my education... but that’s the way things are right now to get a good job which equals must go to college. Go to college equals school debt. Want to be a pilot debt as well.... Anyways....
 
NolePilot said:
People are not able to get loans for the private+career. Some loans the companies are giving are as high as 14%. For some reason whatever it may be with the addition of the Gulfstream program people are able to get loans and get them at a lower interest rate to start training.

In hindsight I should not have put so much money into my education... but that’s the way things are right now to get a good job which equals must go to college. Go to college equals school debt. Want to be a pilot debt as well.... Anyways....
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bingo... that's my situation. 2 years ago with a co-signer prvt+career, they wanted 15.5%

now with the prvt+career+glfstrm, i'm offered 5.75%
 
ryanmickG said:
I'm not telling you not to do it. I have no beef with ATP, and have had the pleasure of flying with some of their grads.

I would probably listen to the 99.9999% of pilots on this board telling you how bad this Gulfstream B.S could be to your career.
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i don't claim to be an expert, but i don't understand how more flight time in more advanced engines hurts your career.

maybe this place has a bad name, but aren't numbers numbers?


ryanmickG said:
If you have to justify your actions so much, then doesn't that tell you that something smells like anchovy poop?
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i'm not trying to overjustify. i'm just wordy and disagree with some premises. sorry i'm just not the most experienced forum poster.
 
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