approach question

deek

New Member
So my home port AXH has a LOC/DME Rwy 9 approach. I'm flying in a C-152 with dual comms/nav with ILS and an Apollo panel mount round GPS that hasn't been updated in who knows when. I can't shoot approaches with it but its useful for getting distance and heading info as a backup for enroute stuff, its a nice 152 but it doesn't have DME. Now I know I can't shoot that approach in IMC cause I don't have DME, but can I shoot and log that approach in VMC? and if it matters i'm not using ATC, just normal CTAF since the whole approach takes place in G. The DME for the approach i'm assuming based on the chart is only needed to find the MAP, I can use my dual navs to get the localizer and pick up Hobby VOR to get the FAF. thanks.
 
Yeah, I don't know either... because it's only used for distance information in that case, not lateral guidance, but I'm assuming it would still need RNP-0.3, I'm not sure if enroute only GPS systems do that?
 
The FAA really doesn't have any guidelines concerning that, I don't think...maybe someone can prove me wrong. I would say you may be able to log it as a practice approach, but definately not in actual.
 
I'm not looking to do this approach in actual IMC, i'm just looking to see if I fly it in perfect VMC, can I put it down in my log book as an approach. I wouldn't need to ID the MAP since I would have visual of the runway miles out.
 
I'm not looking to do this approach in actual IMC, i'm just looking to see if I fly it in perfect VMC, can I put it down in my log book as an approach. I wouldn't need to ID the MAP since I would have visual of the runway miles out.

Then you wouldn't be shooting the approach if you see the runway miles out. I'm not sure when you shoot enough of it to log it, that is what I'm unsure about. The approach needs to be shot in actual or simulated conditions and if you're head is up to see the runway miles out, then you probably shouldn't be logging the approach. If you're going down to minimums or somewhere in that area, you could probably log it even though the database is out of date.
 
I'm not looking to do this approach in actual IMC, i'm just looking to see if I fly it in perfect VMC, can I put it down in my log book as an approach. I wouldn't need to ID the MAP since I would have visual of the runway miles out.

I don't see why not, I logged ADF approaches that the flight school had designed into an AM station. I even had the DPE use that "plate" on my checkride.
 
Then you wouldn't be shooting the approach if you see the runway miles out. I'm not sure when you shoot enough of it to log it, that is what I'm unsure about. The approach needs to be shot in actual or simulated conditions and if you're head is up to see the runway miles out, then you probably shouldn't be logging the approach. If you're going down to minimums or somewhere in that area, you could probably log it even though the database is out of date.

I'm just looking for a way to keep current without having to get a safety pilot or rent a CFI in this airplane.
 
I don't see why not, I logged ADF approaches that the flight school had designed into an AM station. I even had the DPE use that "plate" on my checkride.


14 CFR 61.57 requires that for instrument currency you must conduct "(i) At least six instrument approaches;" What is an "instrument approach"? See 61.1:

(9) Instrument approach means an approach procedure defined in part 97 of this chapter.

So it appears to me that you cannot use an invented instrument procedure for currency, since it is not defined in Part 97. As for the checkride, this is an excerpt from the Pilot Examiner's Handbook:
441 USE OF MAKESHIFT AND NONAPPROVED INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURES FOR TRAINING AND CERTIFICATION. There have been misinterpretations concerning the instrument approach procedures and facilities required for the training and practical testing of instrument rating applicants. Specifically, the misunderstanding concerns whether nonapproved or makeshift approach procedures may be used in lieu of approved 14 CFR part 97 facilities and procedures during training and practical testing. An example of a makeshift procedure would be the substitution of a published approach for one very high frequency omnidirectional range (VOR) on a different VOR.

A. Regulatory Requirement. Section 61.65 provides that an applicant for the instrument practical test must have received instrument flight instruction and have been found competent in precision and nonprecision instrument approaches to published minimums. Section 61.65 states that the practical test must include instrument flight procedures selected by the ASI conducting the test to determine the applicant’s ability to perform competently the IFR operations for which instruction is required by § 61.65 . Since makeshift approaches are not a part of any system, the use of a makeshift approach would not meet the intent of the regulatory requirement and is not authorized.

B. Information Dissemination. Supervising ASIs should ensure that all examiners, pilot schools, and instructor personnel are informed that the regulations do not permit the use of approach procedures other than those outlined in § 91.175(a) for the purpose of meeting the requirements of § 61.65.

So, again, it appears to me that your examiner was out-of-line using your made up approaches for the checkride.
 
I'm just looking for a way to keep current without having to get a safety pilot or rent a CFI in this airplane.

I think that you have to be in IMC to log the approach or under the hood with a safety pilot. Otherwise you can find a sim.
 
14 CFR 61.57 requires that for instrument currency you must conduct "(i) At least six instrument approaches;" What is an "instrument approach"? See 61.1:

(9) Instrument approach means an approach procedure defined in part 97 of this chapter.

So it appears to me that you cannot use an invented instrument procedure for currency, since it is not defined in Part 97. As for the checkride, this is an excerpt from the Pilot Examiner's Handbook:
441 USE OF MAKESHIFT AND NONAPPROVED INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURES FOR TRAINING AND CERTIFICATION. There have been misinterpretations concerning the instrument approach procedures and facilities required for the training and practical testing of instrument rating applicants. Specifically, the misunderstanding concerns whether nonapproved or makeshift approach procedures may be used in lieu of approved 14 CFR part 97 facilities and procedures during training and practical testing. An example of a makeshift procedure would be the substitution of a published approach for one very high frequency omnidirectional range (VOR) on a different VOR.

A. Regulatory Requirement. Section 61.65 provides that an applicant for the instrument practical test must have received instrument flight instruction and have been found competent in precision and nonprecision instrument approaches to published minimums. Section 61.65 states that the practical test must include instrument flight procedures selected by the ASI conducting the test to determine the applicant’s ability to perform competently the IFR operations for which instruction is required by § 61.65 . Since makeshift approaches are not a part of any system, the use of a makeshift approach would not meet the intent of the regulatory requirement and is not authorized.

B. Information Dissemination. Supervising ASIs should ensure that all examiners, pilot schools, and instructor personnel are informed that the regulations do not permit the use of approach procedures other than those outlined in § 91.175(a) for the purpose of meeting the requirements of § 61.65.

So, again, it appears to me that your examiner was out-of-line using your made up approaches for the checkride.


Wellllllll, I doubt he could have busted me, because he did it after a VOR, a GPS approach, and right before a ILS to a low approach to back home. BTW, where do you get the pilot examiner's handbook?
 
Wellllllll, I doubt he could have busted me, because he did it after a VOR, a GPS approach, and right before a ILS to a low approach to back home.

Agreed.

BTW, where do you get the pilot examiner's handbook?

It's no longer available as a separate document, since the FAA consolidated a whole bunch of documents into the god-awful Flight Standards Information Management System, 8900.1:

http://fsims.faa.gov/
 
Agreed.



It's no longer available as a separate document, since the FAA consolidated a whole bunch of documents into the god-awful Flight Standards Information Management System, 8900.1:

http://fsims.faa.gov/


Thanks for that. Luckily I flew a good NDB, but regardless, I know several people who have busted that ride because of this. Interesting.
 
I think you're SOL. As far as the approach goes, even though it's expired you can probably still log it, but shooting an approach not in simulated(which you will need a safety pilot) conditions doesn't count as an approach. Getting vectored by ATC in severe clear without a hood doesn't count.

I never charge anyone to be their safety pilot, I'm just happy to get the free time;) You shouldn't have a problem helping you role play.
 
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