American Eagle is allowed to purchase 22 more CRJs

PCL_128 said:
That doesn't change the fact that those routes should be mainline flying if AMR wants to operate them.
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PCL - do you even read what you are writing? AMR owns American AND Eagle, so your statement that "those routes should be mainline if AMR wants to operate them." is moot.

Clearly, AMR has chosen not to make those routes mainline, hence the reason why Eagle is flying them. If AMR wanted those routes to be mainline - believe me - they would be.



PCL said:
Never trust the APA. The TWA pilots learned that the hard way.
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Right....because the remaining TWA guys who will be going on the seniority list on top of Eagle pilots who were on AMR property for decades longer are getting a raw deal. :rolleyes:

I'd love to watch a legacy carrier (not a LCC) run the way you propose. It'd last about a month.
 
MikeD said:
Is there any large precedence of a mainline flying regional-type aircraft? I can only think of one: When America West flew their own Dash-8s with mainline pilots prior to code sharing with Mesa.
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American tried to fly 100 seat aircraft when they had the Fokkers. Failed miserably because they just couldn't fly an aircraft of that little capacity on their payscale. Didn't make financial sense.
 
ready2fly said:
PCL - do you even read what you are writing? AMR owns American AND Eagle, so your statement that "those routes should be mainline if AMR wants to operate them." is moot.

Clearly, AMR has chosen not to make those routes mainline, hence the reason why Eagle is flying them. If AMR wanted those routes to be mainline - believe me - they would be.
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:banghead: Of course AMR has chosen not to operate them at mainline! Why would they operate them at mainline when you can do it cheaper? The APA needs to force AMR to operate them at mainline and end the damned outsourcing that is destroying all of our careers! :banghead:
 
PCL_128 said:
:banghead: Of course AMR has chosen not to operate them at mainline! Why would they operate them at mainline when you can do it cheaper? The APA needs to force AMR to operate them at mainline and end the damned outsourcing that is destroying all of our careers! :banghead:
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APA's got some damned good scope, Todd. Loads better than Delta and Airways. Heck the only mainline that has better scope is Continental, and that's even debatable with the Q400 reach around that's been going on over there. I mean only 22 70 seaters in their regional feed? That's amazing compared to almost every airline out there.
 
ready2fly said:
American tried to fly 100 seat aircraft when they had the Fokkers. Failed miserably because they just couldn't fly an aircraft of that little capacity on their payscale. Didn't make financial sense.
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So American was trying to put mainline pilots in regional-type aircraft for mainline wages with the Fokker's? Or was the pay commensurate with the seats?
 
MikeD said:
So American was trying to put mainline pilots in regional-type aircraft for mainline wages with the Fokker's? Or was the pay commensurate with the seats?
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This was prior to RJ's. The F-100 was in many ways just a large RJ that paid $200 an hour to sit in the left seat. I.E. Because the aircraft was on mainline property, it paid mainline wages.
 
Having RJs at Mainline can't work (at least at AA/Eagle). At AA the Captain of the smallest plane (currently the MD80) must start out at a pay level higher than the highest paid FO seat (currently the 777). An MD80 Captain starts out at $145 an hour which is $10 more than the top FO pay on the 777 at $135 an hour. With this logic if RJs were at Mainline the ERJ145 Captain would have to earn at least $145 an hour as well. There is no world where an airline can make money paying Captains a STARTING rate of $145 for a 50 seat jet. This is why the Fokker didn't work out. PCL please show me how RJs at mainline can work.
 
jtrain609 said:
APA's got some damned good scope, Todd.
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I guess "good" is relative. I've been around long enough to remember when USAirways had the best scope in the industry: a grand total of 50 allowable 50-seaters. That was it. Now that's good scope. Hell, even Delta had a maximum of 57 allowable 70-seaters at the time. That didn't go away until around 2005 or so.

I mean only 22 70 seaters in their regional feed? That's amazing compared to almost every airline out there.
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What was that line from the movie "Waiting?" Something like "that's like being the smartest kid with Down Syndrome." Insensitive, I know, but fitting nonetheless. Mainline scope is pathetic in general. APA's is just less pathetic than some others.

jtrain609 said:
This was prior to RJ's. The F-100 was in many ways just a large RJ that paid $200 an hour to sit in the left seat. I.E. Because the aircraft was on mainline property, it paid mainline wages.
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The F-100 was still flying at mainline long after RJs came on the scene. I don't think AMR stopped flying them until around 2004. USAirways was still flying Fockers at mainline until around 2001, if I remember right.
 
stillageek said:
Having RJs at Mainline can't work (at least at AA/Eagle). At AA the Captain of the smallest plane (currently the MD80) must start out at a pay level higher than the highest paid FO seat (currently the 777). An MD80 Captain starts out at $145 an hour which is $10 more than the top FO pay on the 777 at $135 an hour. With this logic if RJs were at Mainline the ERJ145 Captain would have to earn at least $145 an hour as well. There is no world where an airline can make money paying Captains a STARTING rate of $145 for a 50 seat jet. This is why the Fokker didn't work out. PCL please show me how RJs at mainline can work.
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You've bought the management BS hook, line, and sinker. Pilot costs do not make or break an airline. Your costs are a tiny fraction of a penny of the total CASM. If you brought E-170s onto mainline and paid the junior Captain $135/hr and the junior FO $70/hr, it would still be a worthwhile operation for the airline. Pilot CASM on that airframe would be higher, but total system PCASM would barely budge. RJs operate as loss-leaders anyway, never actually turning the company a profit. Their purpose is to bring in passengers to the hubs to make connections on routes that actually do turn a profit.

But let's be honest here: management doesn't really care about 50-seaters or 70-seaters. Operating those airplanes has been a camel's nose under the tent for years. What they really want is the 90-110 seaters to be outsourced. In order to get to that point, they had to start with 50-seaters and slowly move their way up. They've been very successful, and they've almost reached their goal. Another round of concessionary bargaining will do it if we don't make up lost ground on scope during this round of non-concessionary bargaining. We need to take back seats and airframes, otherwise management will be outsourcing 737s and Airbii in ten years. This isn't about the 70-seaters, this about the 100-seaters. Management has been engaged in a war of attrition with us for 25 years, and some of us are still too dense to realize it.
 
Scope won't matter, since everyone is going to be flying for Regional wages soon the way the industry is going........
 
MikeD said:
Scope won't matter, since everyone is going to be flying for Regional wages soon the way the industry is going........
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The SWA pilots have a TA with increased wages, and the Alaska pilots are about to have one, from what I hear. We're making up ground on wages.
 
PCL_128 said:
The SWA pilots have a TA with increased wages, and the Alaska pilots are about to have one, from what I hear. We're making up ground on wages.
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That's good. At least things are improving somewhere. Hopefully this continues this direction.
 
jtrain609 said:
APA's got some damned good scope, Todd. Loads better than Delta and Airways. Heck the only mainline that has better scope is Continental, and that's even debatable with the Q400 reach around that's been going on over there. I mean only 22 70 seaters in their regional feed? That's amazing compared to almost every airline out there.
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American did not go through bankruptcy and a a judge loosen labor contracts like DAL,CAL, and Airways. Only 37% of AA North America flying is regional. DAL is right at 50% and CAL is way over. That gives AA a pretty signicant disadvantage when it comes to cost competing with these other legacies, especially with a gas guzzler like the maddog
 
Trip7 said:
American did not go through bankruptcy and a a judge loosen labor contracts like DAL,CAL, and Airways. Only 37% of AA North America flying is regional. DAL is right at 50% and CAL is way over. That gives AA a pretty signicant disadvantage when it comes to cost competing with these other legacies, especially with a gas guzzler like the maddog
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The last time CAL went through BK was 1990, a year before the CRJ made its first ever flight. And as far as percentages go, what are you basing it on? ASMs? fleet size? # of departures? Makes a big difference with the number that you get, in any case its less than 50%. Third CAL is the the only legacy that has 70 seat jets at mainline, and actually has a restriction on 50 seat jets (274).

John, as far as the large TP thing, The old man flew ATR 72s for COex back in the 90s. That part of the scope has not changed. Granted the Q is a little more capable than the ATR, but it still has those 'big spinny things'
 
You know, we can piss on each other all day and try to impress one another with how big our schlongs are.......

...but at the end of the day......Eagle is getting 22 CRJ-700's.

That's what this thread is about. A very small, select few have turned it into their own personal soap box about "how bad regionals are."

Funny - when those very same individuals were flying for a regional and had a hard-on for the majors, they didn't think for a second that what they were doing was "wrong."

In other words - "I got mine.....F*** you."

Nice attitude. No wonder this industry is in piss-poor shape.
 
ready2fly said:
Funny - when those very same individuals were flying for a regional and had a hard-on for the majors, they didn't think for a second that what they were doing was "wrong."

In other words - "I got mine.....F*** you."

Nice attitude. No wonder this industry is in piss-poor shape.
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You misunderstand, ready2fly. Nobody (at least not me) is saying that what you're doing is "wrong." It's not the regional pilots that are the problem. In fact, the problem is the mainline pilots who have given up their scope time and time again. Trying to fix the problem and recapture scope isn't an attack on regional pilots, it's actually a benefit to you, because it will open up more of the good jobs so you can leave your regional and go to a mainline carrier.
 
ready2fly said:
You know, we can piss on each other all day and try to impress one another with how big our schlongs are.......

...but at the end of the day......Eagle is getting 22 CRJ-700's.

That's what this thread is about. A very small, select few have turned it into their own personal soap box about "how bad regionals are."

Funny - when those very same individuals were flying for a regional and had a hard-on for the majors, they didn't think for a second that what they were doing was "wrong."

In other words - "I got mine.....F*** you."

Nice attitude. No wonder this industry is in piss-poor shape.
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PCL_128 said:
You misunderstand, ready2fly. Nobody (at least not me) is saying that what you're doing is "wrong." It's not the regional pilots that are the problem. In fact, the problem is the mainline pilots who have given up their scope time and time again. Trying to fix the problem and recapture scope isn't an attack on regional pilots, it's actually a benefit to you, because it will open up more of the good jobs so you can leave your regional and go to a mainline carrier.
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stillageek said:
Should the 19 seat Beech 1900 pilots be mainline pilots also?
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PCL_128 said:
yes
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Honestly Todd, I have to agree with Stan, after your previous statement about 19 Hondo flying should be mainline. You previously before moving up to a mainline carrier worked for a regional. And flew a 50 seat jet, should that flying you did also have been mainline too?

It seriously smells and sounds like you're pulling up that ladder and saying "I got mine, you!"

No contempt here, I'm just sayin'
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Honestly Todd, I have to agree with Stan, after your previous statement about 19 Hondo flying should be mainline. You previously before moving up to a mainline carrier worked for a regional. And flew a 50 seat jet, should that flying you did also have been mainline too?
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Yes! All flying should be at mainline. There should be no outsourcing whatsoever. That's been my mantra my entire career, even when I was a junior RJ copilot. The only reason that these guys are stuck working at regionals is because the outsourcing has been allowed to continue. We need to recapture all of that flying so the regional pilots can have better jobs at mainline carriers. It would benefit everyone!

It seriously smells and sounds like you're pulling up that ladder and saying "I got mine, you!"
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Not at all. I want these guys to have better jobs, not pull up the ladder on them. When it looked like we were going to merge with Midwest, I was the guy standing on the soap box screaming that we need to merge the Skyway guys into our list also. I hate outsourcing. All jobs should be mainline jobs.
 
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