How do current pilots (and future ones, like myself) go about doing this? Is it realistic to expect mainline management to agree to this? Would it be something that is negotiated in a contract?
American Eagle is allowed to purchase 22 more CRJs
- Thread starter stillageek
- Start date
Trip7
Well-Known Member
my numbers are based of total number of flights from the alpa fee per departure study. CAL may have scope capped at 50 seats but about 57 percent of their domestic flying is outsourced.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Okay, but even during the golden days of regulation that 19 honbo job wasn't mainline, neither were the pilots.
The thing that got me was you saying the 19 hondo should be operated by mainline pilots. I was like wtf, talk about hipocracy he used to fly a 50 seat jet...
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I think he knows that. His point is that it SHOULD be.
I tend to agree with him, but once again have issues with his delivery. Todd, you come of as something of a delusional paranoid with your "us vs. them" mentality of management. Trust me, I KNOW what bad management is like. I work for a company that puts the 9E managers to shame, but somehow I just don't see that many places would go out of their way (at the risk of losing money) to destroy a pilot group. Sure, there are tons of situations where they will spend a quarter to save a penny, but they won't spent a nickle just to union bust.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
It's not something that the regional guys can accomplish; the mainline pilots will have to man-up and go to the mat for it. It would have to be a strike issue.
No, but until the mid-'80s when the EAL pilots first gave up 19-seat scope, there was no commuter feed for the legacies. Mainline either operated a larger aicraft to the city, or customers had to purchase tickets on a commuter airline to get them from their small city to a mainline connection. This resulted in commuter flying being only to very small markets, and mainline operated planes like Convairs, 727s, and 737s to the mid-size markets. Commuter airlines were very small, and you didn't have to spend 10 years at one before you could finally get a job at the big boys.
My delivery is much nicer in person.
Sorry, but we're going to disagree on this one. I've seen it first-hand at three companies. If your management doesn't engage in these kinds of tactics, then believe me, they really don't put the 9E managers to shame.
ready2fly
Well-Known Member
The curse of schedule reductions on the CRJ here in DFW. I've literally been oscillating as follows:In other words 4am rap. Why are you on a 4am rap?anic:
November: Line holder
December: Composite (5 reserve days)
January: Line holder
February: Composite (4 reserve days)
March: Line holder
I was the most senior pilot available today on reserve - hence - I didn't get the call. :bandit: Got released almost two hours ago.
ready2fly
Well-Known Member
Cool. This sentiment I can get behind. I have serious, SERIOUS doubts it will ever happen......but now I see where you were coming from.
My apologies for any misunderstanding.
There have been rumors of American merging seniority lists with Eagle for many years. Those talks are under way again, from what I hear, but American has other fish to fry right now and one seniority list is very far down on the priority list.
Would I like to see it happen? Hell yes! Will it? Not any time soon, I think.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
SmoothLanderJ
Well-Known Member
About the 19 hondo on mainline..............
I have a good friend that I went to college with from Madagascar, he now flies for Air Madagascar. Guess what he started on?........a Twin Otter!
I was amazed when he told me that. I thought he flew for Madagascar Airlink or something...
They have Twin Otters, ATR 72's, 737' and 767's....all flying done by mainline (Air Madagascar). Now of course thats in Madagascar..but hey it CAN be done.
I have a good friend that I went to college with from Madagascar, he now flies for Air Madagascar. Guess what he started on?........a Twin Otter!
I was amazed when he told me that. I thought he flew for Madagascar Airlink or something...They have Twin Otters, ATR 72's, 737' and 767's....all flying done by mainline (Air Madagascar). Now of course thats in Madagascar..but hey it CAN be done.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
Interesting. Can't say I disagree. But it was mainline pilot groups that push off the little jets and Turboprops on the regionals with the scope clauses. Are they willing to fairly integrate the Seniority lists? How would a 20 yr captain fare with a junior new hire?
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Just got home and checked the numbers. I was wrong. Flipped flopped the DAL and CAL stats in my head. By block hours DAL has the worst scope in the industry. And by a pretty significant margin. But as you can see AA's stricter scope clause causes them to have a big cost disadvantage because they don't fly nearly as many RJs percentage wise. Isn't AA in trouble financially. I think I read somewhere that they are on bankruptcy watch.
Total % of Overall Block Hour Flying
(U.S., Canada, Mexico City)
Carrier Mainline Fee-for-Departure
AAA 51.0% 49.0%
ACA 54.0% 46.0%
AMR 63.6% 36.4%
CAL 48.5% 51.5%
DAL 43.7% 56.3%
NWA 54.9% 45.1%
UAL 51.8% 48.2%
Data compiled by ALPA Economic & Financial Analysis
Trip7
Well-Known Member
I believe fair seniority list integration is an oxymoron.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Someone on here once said that the most equitable way to merge two seniority lists is to put both pilot groups in a large field with a bunch of blunt objects. The first guy to fall in the ensuing melee would be the last guy on the list, and the last man standing would be number one.
Seems fair to me, and it'd work a heck of a lot better than anything else unions have tried eh?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
It seems to me that the only "fair" way to integrate the lists would be a staple with fences to protect the senior guys on their RJs.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Which would create World War III with as many pissed off senior mainline FOs there would be
I wouldn't be surprised if fistfights started in the teminals
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
I must say, that before this, I thought the talks on outsource flying were typically unrealistic regional bashing (not referring to you personally). I never understood that. It seems reasonable if the the lines between regional and mainline have been blurred that in order to rectify it, there needs to be an equitable solution for all pilot groups. Despite having tangled horns before, I must say you have an in depth vision for the industry. Good luck in your leadership position, getting this done.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Which would create World War III with as many pissed off senior mainline FOs there would be
I wouldn't be surprised if fistfights started in the teminals
Why would the mainline FOs get mad? They would be senior to all of the regional guys that get stapled except for on the RJ equipment which would be protected for the RJ lifers that don't want to fly anything bigger. No RJ guy would be able to jump ahead of them on mainline equipment.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
I think "date of hire" mantra would pop up. So a 170 captain with twice the experience would not be ahead of a 190 FO?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
That's always been the problem. Whenever a mainline MEC brings up the subject of one list, the regional lifers always start demanding DOH. It's ridiculous.
The 170 Captain has no career expectations beyond his 170 seat. The 190 FO has career expectations to advance into new equipment and to eventually upgrade. It wouldn't be right for the regional CA to receive a windfall and jump ahead of the mainline FOs. As long as his equipment and seat are protected with fences, he shouldn't complain about a staple.