Lawsuit filed against B6/NK

[Bob Ridpath]

The people in the trades refuse to look in the mirror and accept that they are the problem, not woke liberals or whatever. Declining unionization with accompanying problems with compensation, terrible culture with biases against women and minorities, the “sOfT hAnDs BrOtHeR” competition to see who can work themselves into an early divorce/grave the fastest, and failure to embrace workplace safety culture have turned off at this point several generations of kids from entering the trades.

Couldn't disagree with this more

 

[///AMG]

This is also kind of a weird topic for all of us. Being a professional pilot is of course a "profession". But I'd say it is also very much a "trade".

 

[ASpilot2be]

Couldn't disagree with this more

How so?

 

[Roger Roger]

Couldn't disagree with this more

Ok

 

[derg]

I wouldn't have made it without college. First, everywhere I applied required a degree. I left high school at 17 and I basically had zero maturity and the structure was helpful in my development. Of course it's absolutely a hot mess how state legislatures have wrecked public universities and the current generation has to not only find $150K for an education, but starter homes are running $500K+

I don't know how we dig out of that.

But we still need surgeons, attorneys, accountants, engineers, geologists, etc because we can't compete on a global scale with a nation of influencers, plumbers and baristas. We're not living in an economic vacuum and will never again no matter how hard we tariff, navel-gaze and engage in wishful thinking.

I don't pretend to know what the answer is.

Arizona State is $31K/year in 2024 where, I think I remember when I applied for the 1988-1989 academic year it was about $4k/year.

Hell, a semester at Riddle when I went was $1800 when I first started.

 

[roundout]

But we still need surgeons, attorneys, accountants, engineers, geologists, etc because we can't compete on a global scale with a nation of influencers, plumbers and baristas. We're not living in an economic vacuum and will never again no matter how hard we tariff, navel-gaze and engage in wishful thinking.

I don't pretend to know what the answer is.

It’s almost as if some people need to go to college and some need to go in to the trades (ideally union professions).

Part of the problem is we ask (force?) kids to make these life-defining decisions at a point in their development where their prefrontal cortexes aren’t fully developed. Brains literally aren’t capable of making well thought out, chess not checkers decisions. Big Data knows this. Why do you think rent car companies won’t rent to anyone under 25? Why do car insurance rates drop off a cliff upon reaching 25?

Part of the solution would be education. Given the current state of college, as you’ve identified, arming youths with some information about what they’re signing themselves up for would probably be helpful. Show them the math on getting a degree in underwater basket weaving then only being able to get a job at Starbucks. Show them the math on years of med school and how long it takes to pay off the loan, even on what a doctor makes.

Now, who’s responsible for helping kids with this? I would argue parents, though that would make me take this audience down a cynical rabbit hole of parents being undereducated, or unavailable because The System forces most families to need 2 incomes to get by, yadda yadda yadda.

 

[Kingairer]

I wouldn't have made it without college. First, everywhere I applied required a degree. I left high school at 17 and I basically had zero maturity and the structure was helpful in my development. Of course it's absolutely a hot mess how state legislatures have wrecked public universities and the current generation has to not only find $150K for an education, but starter homes are running $500K+

I don't know how we dig out of that.

But we still need surgeons, attorneys, accountants, engineers, geologists, etc because we can't compete on a global scale with a nation of influencers, plumbers and baristas. We're not living in an economic vacuum and will never again no matter how hard we tariff, navel-gaze and engage in wishful thinking.

I don't pretend to know what the answer is.

Arizona State is $31K/year in 2024 where, I think I remember when I applied for the 1988-1989 academic year it was about $4k/year.

Hell, a semester at Riddle when I went was $1800 when I first started.

Do you think the college degree requirement will come back to airlines do you think it will permanently live in the “preferred” category. Maybe it always was?, but from what i recall was extremely rare for someone to be hired at the “majors” w/o a degree.

 

[Kingairer]

I wouldn't have made it without college. First, everywhere I applied required a degree. I left high school at 17 and I basically had zero maturity and the structure was helpful in my development. Of course it's absolutely a hot mess how state legislatures have wrecked public universities and the current generation has to not only find $150K for an education, but starter homes are running $500K+

I don't know how we dig out of that.

But we still need surgeons, attorneys, accountants, engineers, geologists, etc because we can't compete on a global scale with a nation of influencers, plumbers and baristas. We're not living in an economic vacuum and will never again no matter how hard we tariff, navel-gaze and engage in wishful thinking.

I don't pretend to know what the answer is.

Arizona State is $31K/year in 2024 where, I think I remember when I applied for the 1988-1989 academic year it was about $4k/year.

Hell, a semester at Riddle when I went was $1800 when I first started.

If you were unconcerned with a “college” experience you can get two years knocked out at a Community College/Tech school very cheaply at least in my state. Take some college credits in senior year of high school, live with mom and pops while you finish two years at a CC for under $5k. There are even a few full universities here like Western Nc, UNCP where the tuition is $500/semester for instate under a special program (available to all). You can do college “cheap” if a student has good guidance on shopping and is willing to forgo some of the “atmosphere” stuff.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

I wouldn't have made it without college. First, everywhere I applied required a degree. I left high school at 17 and I basically had zero maturity and the structure was helpful in my development. Of course it's absolutely a hot mess how state legislatures have wrecked public universities and the current generation has to not only find $150K for an education, but starter homes are running $500K+

I don't know how we dig out of that.

But we still need surgeons, attorneys, accountants, engineers, geologists, etc because we can't compete on a global scale with a nation of influencers, plumbers and baristas. We're not living in an economic vacuum and will never again no matter how hard we tariff, navel-gaze and engage in wishful thinking.

I don't pretend to know what the answer is.

Arizona State is $31K/year in 2024 where, I think I remember when I applied for the 1988-1989 academic year it was about $4k/year.

Hell, a semester at Riddle when I went was $1800 when I first started.

Both of those issues are caused by access to cheap money. People with money to spend through federally backed loans increase demand. There’s no easy fix that I can, though.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

It’s because colleges have no skin in the loan business. It’s the government (and hence the taxpayers) who are responsible from the fallout if the student can’t repay.


Easiest solution:

Govt exits college loan business. Make colleges/universities directly loan money to students, and/or banks directly loan to students.

Just watch the algorithms say hey, we can’t approve the loan for this field you’re choosing…


The problem would fix itself. And cost of college would make an instant correction.

 

[Roger Roger]

It’s almost as if some people need to go to college and some need to go in to the trades (ideally union professions).

Part of the problem is we ask (force?) kids to make these life-defining decisions at a point in their development where their prefrontal cortexes aren’t fully developed. Brains literally aren’t capable of making well thought out, chess not checkers decisions. Big Data knows this. Why do you think rent car companies won’t rent to anyone under 25? Why do car insurance rates drop off a cliff upon reaching 25?

Part of the solution would be education. Given the current state of college, as you’ve identified, arming youths with some information about what they’re signing themselves up for would probably be helpful. Show them the math on getting a degree in underwater basket weaving then only being able to get a job at Starbucks. Show them the math on years of med school and how long it takes to pay off the loan, even on what a doctor makes.

Now, who’s responsible for helping kids with this? I would argue parents, though that would make me take this audience down a cynical rabbit hole of parents being undereducated, or unavailable because The System forces most families to need 2 incomes to get by, yadda yadda yadda.

If Im a teenager and I see my options as a) a chance to go the college route or b) trades where yeah, maybe I’ll make good money, but my knees and back will be toast by my 40s (and unless i luck into a good union job, won’t have good enough insurance to get them taken care of), I’ll probably be forced into working overtime for eternity, put up with a bunch of crusty old farts more interested in being non-woke than actually mentoring a new generation of professionals, be told that OSHA just exists to make my life more difficult, etc. not to mention the rampant sexism in a lot of the trades that is going to dissuade most of 50% of the population from even thinking about it, wouldn’t you at least try to go the college route?

 

[Roger Roger]

Of the pilots on here who idolize trade school, I do wonder how many have run wire through an attic in Texas in the summer, unclogged a sewer pipe in a crawlspace by hand, worked night shifts doing manual labor, worked a job where you didn’t have mandatory rest rules, etc.

 

[roundout]

Of the pilots on here who idolize trade school, I do wonder how many have run wire through an attic in Texas in the summer, unclogged a sewer pipe in a crawlspace by hand, worked night shifts doing manual labor, worked a job where you didn’t have mandatory rest rules, etc.

I’ve done all three of those, actually. Chose college. But it isn’t for everyone, and we shouldn’t pretend it is.

 

[Richman]

It’s because colleges have no skin in the loan business. It’s the government (and hence the taxpayers) who are responsible from the fallout if the student can’t repay.


Easiest solution:

Govt exits college loan business. Make colleges/universities directly loan money to students, and/or banks directly loan to students.

Just watch the algorithms say hey, we can’t approve the loan for this field you’re choosing…


The problem would fix itself. And cost of college would make an instant correction.

Last time around school, it was sickening how much they pushed the student loan thing. They're just as usurious as credit cards charging 28%, but at least your can get out of CC debit by declaring bankruptcy.

If I were Grand Galactic Overlord for a day (and thank your personal God that will never happen), I would make student loans dismissible in bankruptcy, with subrogation for the loan provider to the educational institution.

Then I'd sit back and watch the fun in the Thunderdome as the blame evasion begun.

 

[derg]

It’s almost as if some people need to go to college and some need to go in to the trades (ideally union professions).

Part of the problem is we ask (force?) kids to make these life-defining decisions at a point in their development where their prefrontal cortexes aren’t fully developed. Brains literally aren’t capable of making well thought out, chess not checkers decisions. Big Data knows this. Why do you think rent car companies won’t rent to anyone under 25? Why do car insurance rates drop off a cliff upon reaching 25?

Part of the solution would be education. Given the current state of college, as you’ve identified, arming youths with some information about what they’re signing themselves up for would probably be helpful. Show them the math on getting a degree in underwater basket weaving then only being able to get a job at Starbucks. Show them the math on years of med school and how long it takes to pay off the loan, even on what a doctor makes.

Now, who’s responsible for helping kids with this? I would argue parents, though that would make me take this audience down a cynical rabbit hole of parents being undereducated, or unavailable because The System forces most families to need 2 incomes to get by, yadda yadda yadda.

Subscribe.

I was the only person in my family to go to college, but my parents were pretty frank about what they would and would not pay for AND I luckily had people that were very frank with me when I was a kid.

"Why are you going to college?"

"To learn and to expand my…."

"Don't be an idiot, you're going to college to make more money, anything else is a hobby that you're going to do on your own dime"

"Do what you love and the money will f…"

"See that crackhead? He loves the pipe. How much money do you think he has?"

(ACTUAL conversations with parents and adults, and yes, there was actually a crackhead on the corner when my aunt said what she said)

 

[///AMG]

If Im a teenager and I see my options as a) a chance to go the college route or b) trades where yeah, maybe I’ll make good money, but my knees and back will be toast by my 40s (and unless i luck into a good union job, won’t have good enough insurance to get them taken care of), I’ll probably be forced into working overtime for eternity, put up with a bunch of crusty old farts more interested in being non-woke than actually mentoring a new generation of professionals, be told that OSHA just exists to make my life more difficult, etc. not to mention the rampant sexism in a lot of the trades that is going to dissuade most of 50% of the population from even thinking about it, wouldn’t you at least try to go the college route?

I see what you did.....

You're talking about being a pilot here?

 

[Roger Roger]

I see what you did.....

You're talking about being a pilot here?

Now that you mention it….

 

[killbilly]

If Im a teenager and I see my options as a) a chance to go the college route or b) trades where yeah, maybe I’ll make good money, but my knees and back will be toast by my 40s (and unless i luck into a good union job, won’t have good enough insurance to get them taken care of), I’ll probably be forced into working overtime for eternity, put up with a bunch of crusty old farts more interested in being non-woke than actually mentoring a new generation of professionals, be told that OSHA just exists to make my life more difficult, etc. not to mention the rampant sexism in a lot of the trades that is going to dissuade most of 50% of the population from even thinking about it, wouldn’t you at least try to go the college route?

This concept works in theory, but I ask you, as an 18 year old, were you actually thinking about the long-term physical effects, the economics of a union and health insurance and the internal sexism of that same potential workplace? Because if you were, I applaud you. At 18 I'm not sure I could have put all of those concepts into the same cohesive whole of an idea without some prompting. Not because I wasn't intelligent or lacking, but because I was 18.

It's funny, but my parents really were pushing the grades/college thing right up until around my junior year of high school....then they sort of gave although Dad even threw a couple of half-hearted bribe attempts at me to motivate me that, even at face value, were kind of laughable...

...but if I had expressed an interest in a trade like being a machinist (Dad really, really wanted me to build and/or drive race cars) or an electrician, I'm pretty sure my parents would have encouraged me heavily - both because they loved me, but also because they perceived value in those trades. Which is why they were only marginally freaked out when I came home one day and told them I wanted to be a Marine*.

Point of that little parable is that kids - teenagers, anyway - don't really know what they don't know - so those of us at parenting/mentoring age would do well to impart some extra guidance about the value** of college vs. trades - especially now, when the lines between what's a "good" career and what isn't have gotten a lot fuzzier.

*the marine corps thing didn't work out - busted up my knee in delayed entry and couldn't ship by my contract deadline. Then stuff happened at home and being a Marine wasn't a good idea any more. Life went on.

**value in this case is pretty subjective and probably worth a thread all it's own, because how value is assessed and measured seems to be a pretty wide spectrum by generation. this is, to me, pretty important in the scope of the discussion.