You're the FO...

ppragman said:
Ehh, I doubt it. Most of the really crazy reg busting wildcards came up from down south. 121 is a different world, but its not the only world. Guys do that kind of crap all the time, it sucks, I don't do it, and I don't like it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There's a lot more cowboy out there than most people would care to acknowledge.
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I keep asking myself if that response falls more into the category of denial or rationalization.
 
Cannon said:
I keep asking myself if that response falls more into the category of denial or rationalization.
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What is in denial about it? Where in there is any rationalization? What part of aviation do you work it? It ain't always so rosy. Ask some freight guys about it, chances are they've either heard of someone busting mins, or have "heard" of someone busting mins. But whatever, if you want to deny that there are reckless dudes out there, then by all means, be my guest. I'm not sure why I'm catching flak for this.
 
Cannon said:
I keep asking myself if that response falls more into the category of denial or rationalization.
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People intentionally bust mins everyday. Seriously. Not saying it's a good thing to do; I don't personally do it, but I know guys who do. Regularly.*

* And no, they don't work for my company.
 
A while back the union folks here at Eagle sent around an email about 'Mission Mentality'.


Call it the 'Type A' thing about pilots, or old freight tendencies, or military tendencies, or airline 'go-home-itis' etc... pilots sometimes seem to be in a bit of a hurry to get things done.

End result? Busted mins, regs, and sometimes, airplanes.

Barring running out of fuel, is anybody going to die if you don't get in on the first try?

So why the hurry? What part of our collective pilot psychology drives that?
 
ppragman said:
What is in denial about it? Where in there is any rationalization? What part of aviation do you work it? It ain't always so rosy. Ask some freight guys about it, chances are they've either heard of someone busting mins, or have "heard" of someone busting mins. But whatever, if you want to deny that there are reckless dudes out there, then by all means, be my guest. I'm not sure why I'm catching flak for this.
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:yeahthat:

Burying your head in the sand and saying that something like busting mins never happens is almost as bad as actually busting the mins. Flying involves a healthy dose of reality, and if you wanna live in fantasy land, where nothing bad ever happens, you wont be around very long.

I cant speak for the 121 world, except to say I know some (retired) captains that will admit to it. They would joke about the standard call out being 200, 100, minimums, then a three second pause and field in sight.

As far as all the cowboys being up in Alaska, HAH! I think a lot of cowboys come to their senses when they realize they're not in a cornfield, and theres actually something to hit.

If you fly freight for any amount of time, you know someone that bust mins usually on a regular basis. Nobody bothers to brag about it, or even talk about it. Its just a common thing.

Busting mins isnt isolated to AK, and I would hazard a guess to say that "habitual busters" arent really reckless. You dont get to have 20,000 hours by having a death wish. Is it the right thing to do? No. But some guys just know what they're doing.
 
Firebird2XC said:
So why the hurry? What part of our collective pilot psychology drives that?
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Well, "mission mentality".

It can be a lot worse at some airlines where there are an abundance of pilots that fail to differentiate a SAC mission to lob a nuke at Moscow that literally MUST go or the world is going to end from flying Dallas to El Paso with a 40% load factor and a cargo bin full of crickets.
 
I flip out. Grab the controls, yell and scream a lot, yank the thing up, firewall, and scream "yee-haw" as I go up up up and save everyone on board. I'm a freaking hero baby.
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And just for the record, I would backhand the guy first while yelling "MORTAAALLLLL COMBAAATTTT!!!!" and then I would take the plane for the go around.
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I know I'm a little late here...I just really had to add:
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

wait wait.. oh god..
:rotfl::rotfl::yup::yup:

you guys are so funny!!! but i learn a lot nevertheless.
 
Hmmm I must not have a "complete the mission" mentality.... just this Thursday, we were shooting an approach at night into ATL with 1/4SM 200', 3000RVR.... we barely got the approach lights at mins, and the runway at 100 above TDZE.... but when the CA called 100 above mins and still hadn't said "approach lights in sight" or "runway in sight", I was thinking go around. I was prepped for go around until he called runway in sight....

that's just me, your mileage may vary, and it could be because: 1) my first flight in 17 days, and the first time I've seen minimums in 3+ months.

Very much appreciative that the CA didn't insist upon doing this approach!
 
Doug Taylor said:
Well, "mission mentality".

It can be a lot worse at some airlines where there are an abundance of pilots that fail to differentiate a SAC mission to lob a nuke at Moscow that literally MUST go or the world is going to end from flying Dallas to El Paso with a 40% load factor and a cargo bin full of crickets.
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We have a few of those around here, too.

.... cargo bin full of crickets. That made me shoot coffee out my nose. Good show, sir!
 
ppragman said:
But I guess the 1500TT you have, the 17 months, 1 week and 3 days since your furlough from a regional airline after working as a flight instructor and the fact that you frequent jetcareers entitles you to comment upon things which apparently you know everything about.
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Have nothing to add to this thread which is no longer being commented on but THIS IS SO SPOT ON AND HILARIOUS!!!!
Its like the 40 year old dude that can't stop talking about his HS football days!
 
BajtheJino said:
Have nothing to add to this thread which is no longer being commented on but THIS IS SO SPOT ON AND HILARIOUS!!!!
Its like the 40 year old dude that can't stop talking about his HS football days!
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I bet you I could throw a pigskin quarter of a mile.
 
Okay, I'll revive this:

1. Doesn't company policy directly address this scenario (I'd think it would be a common situation)?

2. If not, since you know it's going to be at or close to minimums well before, wouldn't you both clarify the CA's preferences on how to handle it during the approach briefing, or at least before you're actually there on short final?
 
Atcdc said:
Okay, I'll revive this:

1. Doesn't company policy directly address this scenario (I'd think it would be a common situation)?

2. If not, since you know it's going to be at or close to minimums well before, wouldn't you both clarify the CA's preferences on how to handle it during the approach briefing, or at least before you're actually there on short final?
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The rub here is mins are mins, there shouldnt be a reason to clarify what the captain is going to do, it should be clear that you go missed at mins, at least for some.

I'm sure working ATC you've seen some A/C magically find a hole while others are going missed.
 
cmill said:
The rub here is mins are mins, there shouldnt be a reason to clarify what the captain is going to do, it should be clear that you go missed at mins, at least for some.

I'm sure working ATC you've seen some A/C magically find a hole while others are going missed.
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Different aircraft have different deck angles, and different positions of the pilots relative to the position of the wheels. Sometimes a little different perspective or just a few feet makes all the difference.

Of course, sometimes you hear the wheels touch down at a GA airport, and you can't even see the ramp, much less the runway, and you wonder...how low did he go before he "saw" the runway off of that VOR approach? Happened all the time up in Rhode Island. It's the Wild West out there at those smaller airports sometimes.
 
cmill said:
The rub here is mins are mins, there shouldnt be a reason to clarify what the captain is going to do, it should be clear that you go missed at mins, at least for some.

I'm sure working ATC you've seen some A/C magically find a hole while others are going missed.
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He/she works at HQ now because ATC was too "boring" ???

But yes I have seen it but I don't know if it was "cowboy" stuff, 99% the time weather is below all mins it involves rapidly changing conditions in which the RVR is jumping around like a ADHD pre-teen on PCP. Now going into satellite airports I have seen times where I think pilots were "cowboys". In those cases I "talk to the tapes" so I cover my backside much like you guys would announce the go around. Once I had a guy go into a satellite airport and tell me he barely broke out at the mins and that it was getting worse. 5 mins later a Pilatus cancelled IFR, in the air 1500ft above the mins. I have no idea what he was thinking but that's how some people are.
 
CFI4life said:
Cool? As is pull the seat cushion out?

What if he DOES respond? With something like, "Its ok, I got this!" or He says he has ground contact or claims to see the approach lights but you don't see anything?
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If this......................




then this....................
jtrain609 said:
If he's on the controls and actually flying and won't go around, I'd be keying up the mic and telling the controller we're going around. Whether the captain continues or not at this point is up to him, and the chances of getting hurt when he ducked below minimums while you have a perfectly normal runway in front of you are slim. In any event I'd call off the trip as soon as we were on the ground safely. I've got no interest in flying with clowns like that.

Now, that being said, I've never flown with a clown like that. I think the more likely situation is that the skipper keeled over and nobody is flying the airplane. If that's the case, then I'll take the plane and go around.

Pretty straight forward, but the most important thing that people have been saying here is that YOU DO NOT WANT TO WRESTLE FOR THE CONTROLS!
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These are all valid points. I was always under the impression in the 121 world if you bust mins on the approach and land (even if the captain is flying), that the Captain will probably get a note in his file, slap on the wrist, and some remedial training. Meanwhile, the FO will probably get canned...:(
 
jynxyjoe said:
I flip out. Grab the controls, yell and scream a lot, yank the thing up, firewall, and scream "yee-haw" as I go up up up and save everyone on board. I'm a freaking hero baby.

Nope none of that.

Edit: never mind I saw later you corrected your question.
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That was my favorite!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::insane::insane::insane:
 
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