You are all hired!

Steve it varies at each airline. Right now there is generally a 15 minute period after the brake is set, door closed, etc, that is considered part of the duty day. After that we are into rest period. It will vary at each airline. No one is paid for this time.

You will have to ask the rest of the pilots about how each of their airline counts the 1 hour prior to flight time. You will get a lot of different answers.

Joe
 
So pilots who currently fly the max allowable hours or those who sit reserve will take a pay cut to their already paltry pay? That or work more days to reach the max allowable flight time per month?

I know this wont affect everyone, but for those of us looking to get into the industry at some point in the near future, it is one more thing to consider.


Well yes and no. Pilots flying 90-95 flight hours per month will be taken down to 65-75 hours.

Reserves have some really special rules that will cut their duty day down. They will not be flying as much. There will now be an incentive for the airlines to get those reserves off of reserve as quickly as possible since many contracts guarantee a certain number of paid flight hours that reserves will not be able to make.

This should not affect your decision to get into the industry.

Joe
 
JoeFriday, you are by far the best potstirrer I have ever seen.

It's not a knock, just an observational factoid.

stir the pot baby, stir it!
 
You're making my eyes bleed, please stop.

I appreciate the fervor, but good lord, this is like listening to Sarah Palin attempt to piece together a cogent sentence.
 
You're making my eyes bleed, please stop.

I appreciate the fervor, but good lord, this is like listening to Sarah Palin attempt to piece together a cogent sentence.

I'd like to believe that the new rest rules will have some sort of positive effect on hiring. This thread's been a lot more fun to read that some of the whiny jobs available threads. We need the positive (maybe slightly exaggerated posts) to balance out the negativity!

Anyway, I will go back to my corner and mumble "Hiring Boom" over and over until it happens. BBL :)
 
It will likely cause hiring at the regionals, but at the majors it could believe it or not, cause some reductions, with the ability to fly 9 hour turns. Just for EWR 756, the daytime LHR 2-day would lose its IRO, and all of the carribean trips will be flown as turns rather than 24 hour overnights. Plus there will be a few places in the schedule that will be able to use that 9 hour block day to squeeze more, i.e. IAH-LAX-EWR, EWR-LAS-IAH, both of which would be between 8 and 9 hours.
 
Strong unions would guarantee proper scheduling and rest. Seems to me that a major strike (I mean MAJOR) would force management to sit down and talk ? Air France has very powerful unions, and let me tell you that you are looking at some of the best paid pilots of the industry, good schedules and rest periods and an airline that is doing pretty well (apart from the last 2/3 years but that's another story). Why should we always be the last ones to benefit from anything ?
 
I don't know squat about 121, but at the 135 companies I've worked for, everyone is very careful to leave a "reasonable" amount of time on the duty log for pre and post-flight duties. Usually around 30 minutes. Granted, an hour would probably be more reasonable (at least preflight), but FWIW, I've never worked for a company at which duty time ends when the brake is set. This may be a function of different POIs, different FSDO fiefdoms and their "interpretations", or just a general "culture difference" between 135 and 121, but it's not like viewing pre and postflight as duty time is unheard of.

Our company SOP is 1.5 hours added to the scheduled trip length (one hour for pre-flight duties before scheduled departure and one-half hour post-flight after arrival). Scheduling will not book flights with less than that (except under very special circumstances that require both PIC and management approval). In other words a maximum length 14 hour duty day will have no more than 12.5 hours between initial departure to final arrival. One exception is if the down time is long enough to put the crew at rest for at least 10 hours (also adding in the additional 1.5 hours pre- and post-flight duties, so 11.5 hours minimum from arrival to departure.) then they get day rooms.
 
Under 121 and 135, ANYTIME you have a responsibility to the company, pager, phone, be at a certain location, etc. is duty
 
If you are a commercial pilot and you are out of work now, chances are you will not be out of work much longer.

The reason for this is because of the proposed work rule changes that will guarantee airline pilots 9 hours of rest behind the hotel room door.

This is a major change in our industry and one that is long overdue. Under the current rules, airlines have been able to control an airline pilots life for up to 18 clock hours a day. They have done this in such a way that the pilots being tied up for 17-18 hours a day will swear under oath that they are working a maximum of 14 hours per day.

In order to understand how this has been permitted, you have to understand how the pay and duty times have been calculated at many airlines.

Pilots and flight attendants are usually paid only when the door is closed on the aircraft. Airlines have different ways of counting when the start and stop time begins. Some do it when the brake is released or engaged. Some do it when the passenger door is closed. Some do it when all doors are closed including passenger, service and cargo doors.

However, as you know pilots and flight attendants have to be at the airport 1 hour before the flight is scheduled for departure. This is time the company controls the flight crew, but does not pay them.

Pilots are usually onboard before any passengers are loaded as they go through pre-flight duties. Flight attendants must be onboard because they must load the passengers. Again, none of this time is paid and in many cases it does not count as part of the duty day. This time often comes out of the pilot and flight attendant rest time.

When the plane lands, it's the same thing all over again. The pay stops when the brake is engaged or the door is open. The duty day also stops when the brake is engaged or the door is open. Of course there are still things to shut down in the cockpit and there are still a plane load of passengers onboard. A flight crew is going to be tied up at least another 20 minutes getting the jet bridge pulled up, the passengers deplaned and the systems shut down. Under current rules, this time also comes out of the pilot and flight attendant rest time.

What ends up happening is that a crew can get scheduled for a 14 hour duty day and actually be tied up for 18 clock hours because of the way the schedules are put together.

For example, let's look at a 14 hour duty day with the first flight scheduled out at 6AM. The company would say that the crew will start at 6AM and end no later than 8PM. But that is simply not the case. First off, the crew has to be at the airport at 5AM (one hour before flight time). In order to be at the airport one hour before flight time, the crew would need to be on the crew bus at the hotel at least 30 minutes prior which would be 4:30 AM.

So this 14 hour duty day is already at 15.5 hours in the best case scenerio. The crew bus trip can run 45 minutes to an hour at some stations.

At the end of the day the crew pulls into the gate at sets the brake at 8:00 PM. In the best case scenerio they get all of the passengers off of the plane by 8:20. The crew then walks to the front of the airport to meet the crew bus. It will take at least 10 minutes to make that walk. At some airports it will take more than 10 minutes.
We are now at 16 hours since we got on the crew bus this morning at 4:30 AM.

We now have to wait for the crew bus. That will take anywhere from 5-20 minutes. By the time we get out of the airport it's 9:00 PM. We are now at 16.5 hours since we started this AM.

If we are on a short overnight, it might be a 30 minute ride to the hotel. We are now at 17 hours if everything has been ontime. If there is even a one hour delay it's now at 18 clock hours, that we have been under company control, and we are just getting to our hotel room.

Hopefully this explains where the 17 to 18 hours comes from. You can see from this schedule that flight crews are only getting 4-6 hours of sleep per night under the current rules.

So let's look at the proposed work rules and look at what is going to happen.

The new work rules require that pilots have 9 hours rest, "behind the hotel room door". Keep in mind that there is at least an hour on each end of this 9 hour rule to transport the pilots to and from the hotel. Anyway you add it up, there are 11 clock hours that the company will not control the flight crew.

There are still 24 hours in a day. If you take the 24 hours and you subtract the 11 clock hours then you are left with 13 hours which is the maximum duty day limit under the new rules. This is also the maximum number of clock hours that the company can control the pilots.

It you take the present clock time that a pilot can be tied up by the company (18 hours) and subtract the proposed time that the company will be able to control a pilot (13 hours) you should get a difference of 5 clock hours. If you divide 5 by 18 you will get 27.7% which we calculate is the best case scenerio if nothing goes wrong.

Therefore under the best case scenerio, it will take 27.7% more pilots and flight attendants to fly the same planes on the same routes with the same number of passengers.

Keep in mind that the number of flight hours are not increasing. This does not account for any growth. This does not account for any retirements or exits from the company.

At first glance it would appear that the airlines will spend a lot more money on pilots and flight attendants. That is not correct. While there will be a modest increase for benefits, etc., the hours that the new hires will be flying are taken from the current schedule and flight crews. So a pilot currently flying 90 hours will be cut down to 65-75 hours.

The maximum duty day will be 13 hours. Your quality of life will improve. You will get 8 hours of real rest and the industry will be safer.

There are currently 70,000 commerical airline pilots in the US. 20,000 work at the regionals and 50,000 work at the major and nationals. If you take 27% of 70,000 commerical pilots and calculate it out you will find that 18,900 additional pilots will be needed to fly the same routes with the same aircraft when the work rules go into effect on August 1, 2010.

Joe

I don't want to pee on anyone's Lucky Charms, but with oil currently hovering around $90 a barrel and rising and the Fed printing $600 billion, maybe 2011 won't shape up to be such a hot year. In aviation or otherwise.
 
Strong unions would guarantee proper scheduling and rest. Seems to me that a major strike (I mean MAJOR) would force management to sit down and talk ? Air France has very powerful unions, and let me tell you that you are looking at some of the best paid pilots of the industry, good schedules and rest periods and an airline that is doing pretty well (apart from the last 2/3 years but that's another story). Why should we always be the last ones to benefit from anything ?


The unions had 30 years to get this done. They failed. The only reason these work rules are getting changed is because of the flight 3407 crash.

Joe
 
I don't want to pee on anyone's Lucky Charms, but with oil currently hovering around $90 a barrel and rising and the Fed printing $600 billion, maybe 2011 won't shape up to be such a hot year. In aviation or otherwise.

That sounds like a company line that used to work to stop things like proper work rules that allowed for adequate rest for pilots to avoid fatique. That line will not work any longer since the 3407 crash.

Joe
 
How it a "company line" to point out that the nation is on the brink of financial Apocalypse? The Companies screaming to the rafters that everything is ok, return to your homes!
 
How it a "company line" to point out that the nation is on the brink of financial Apocalypse? The Companies screaming to the rafters that everything is ok, return to your homes!


So because times are tough, airlines should be allowed to operate "with a lesser safety standard" than if times are not so tough?

According to Sully (who did this for 30 years) pilots are getting about 5 1/2 hours sleep on overnights. He flew for USAir which is supposed to be one of the big carriers. Is this lack of 8 hours sleep, for pilots flying passengers around on multi million dollar aircraft, just at USAir? I don't think so.

Were times tough for the entire 30 years that Sully flew? Or was the airlines position that it costs too much just a bunch of smoke and mirrors that the sheep went along with?

Joe
 
He's not talking about the brink of financial apocalypse reducing safety standards. What he means "You are all FIRED!".

Head out of ass now?
 
That sounds like a company line that used to work to stop things like proper work rules that allowed for adequate rest for pilots to avoid fatique. That line will not work any longer since the 3407 crash.

Joe

I wasn't referring to work rules or fatigue. I'm only saying that maybe, just maybe, with rising commodity prices, another $600 billion "stimulus" and the economy really not making a strong comeback, that it's possible that 2011 might not shape up to be a great year. Oh yeah, and the possibility of an Iranian war. What would that do to oil prices. I really, really hope things continue to pick up in this industry because I, along with so many other people, want some movement. Not to mention the people who are unemployed. I want to be optimistic, just not too optimistic.
 
So because times are tough, airlines should be allowed to operate "with a lesser safety standard" than if times are not so tough?

Where did he say anything about that? Putting words in people's mouths is not a great way to make friends. In this case it is a great way to sound unbalanced.
 
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