Yo ATN_Pilot

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
It's a hell of an airplane, you can't deny it:

http://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-717-jet-delta-hawaiian-qantas-2017-12
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The article's got quite a bit of hyperbole. To start, there's only four 717 operators in the world, one of which is in the process of replacing them with A319's (Volotea), and the second will eventually replace with CSeries (Delta, as noted in the article). Second, I'm also not sure how Boeing's Sales VP in Asia/India says his clients are clamoring for more 717's, when none of them have/operate 717's in the first place. Not a single carrier in Asia/India have them - the closest would be Turkmenistan, which has all 7 of it's 717's in storage. Hard to imagine there's that many airlines clamoring for these things.

I'm sure Delta and Hawaiian like the airplanes, and would happily take more, for good reason - it's a moderately efficient 100-seater that is/was dirt cheap. It's a cheap way to upgauge the airline out of 50-seaters, especially with current scope clause restrictions on increasing 76-seaters. Outside of them, I can't see anybody else being interested, since global demand for 100-seaters is still sluggish, even with the ultra-efficient engines that are going onto the next generation aircraft.

What's really unfortunate is that, in the grand-scheme of 100-seat airplanes, I actually think the 717 could have had the most potential because it's design was not compromised by unrealistic range expectations. It was designed to have a maximum range of ~1,500 nm, so it's major components - wings, engines, and stabilizers - are designed appropriately for this mission. If it had the benefit of the NextGen motors that the E2 and CSeries will have, I actually think it would outsell both, because both of those versions are designed to go much farther and hence carry unnecessary structure/weight when you are not utilizing that range. I'll defer to the Southernjets folks on this site for this claim - but I believe part of the way that DAL lowered the effective price of the CSeries was by capping it's range to 1,000 nm -- so even Southernjets has spoken that they may not use up to 2,000 nm of the design range. That's wasted structure/weight that can only be offset by price - whereas the 717 isn't affected by this, since it's designed for the shorter mission.
 
Ecl!pse said:
The article's got quite a bit of hyperbole. To start, there's only four 717 operators in the world, one of which is in the process of replacing them with A319's (Volotea), and the second will eventually replace with CSeries (Delta, as noted in the article). Second, I'm also not sure how Boeing's Sales VP in Asia/India says his clients are clamoring for more 717's, when none of them have/operate 717's in the first place. Not a single carrier in Asia/India have them - the closest would be Turkmenistan, which has all 7 of it's 717's in storage. Hard to imagine there's that many airlines clamoring for these things.

I'm sure Delta and Hawaiian like the airplanes, and would happily take more, for good reason - it's a moderately efficient 100-seater that is/was dirt cheap. It's a cheap way to upgauge the airline out of 50-seaters, especially with current scope clause restrictions on increasing 76-seaters. Outside of them, I can't see anybody else being interested, since global demand for 100-seaters is still sluggish, even with the ultra-efficient engines that are going onto the next generation aircraft.

What's really unfortunate is that, in the grand-scheme of 100-seat airplanes, I actually think the 717 could have had the most potential because it's design was not compromised by unrealistic range expectations. It was designed to have a maximum range of ~1,500 nm, so it's major components - wings, engines, and stabilizers - are designed appropriately for this mission. If it had the benefit of the NextGen motors that the E2 and CSeries will have, I actually think it would outsell both, because both of those versions are designed to go much farther and hence carry unnecessary structure/weight when you are not utilizing that range. I'll defer to the Southernjets folks on this site for this claim - but I believe part of the way that DAL lowered the effective price of the CSeries was by capping it's range to 1,000 nm -- so even Southernjets has spoken that they may not use up to 2,000 nm of the design range. That's wasted structure/weight that can only be offset by price - whereas the 717 isn't affected by this, since it's designed for the shorter mission.
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Everts has 717s too yah?
 
Derg said:
I didn't see the ValuJet DC9 as a slam against AirTran because AirTran WAS ValuJet before the AirTran acquisition.

Perhaps I'm blind but I didn't see the implication of the "LOL, here's ValuJet 592" as all I saw was a VJ DC9
)
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Was that a picture of the actual plane that was 592? I honestly didn’t know. I just thought it was a good picture of a DC-9. I apologize if it was.
 
Cptnchia said:
Was that a picture of the actual plane that was 592? I honestly didn’t know. I just thought it was a good picture of a DC-9. I apologize if it was.
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No. 592 was 904VJ. Different plane.

Lighten up people. Cptchia was referring to the hideous paintjob of the critter and the Valujet livery, compared to the AirTran one, as I read it.
 
Ecl!pse said:
I'm sure Delta and Hawaiian like the airplanes, and would happily take more, for good reason - it's a moderately efficient 100-seater that is/was dirt cheap. It's a cheap way to upgauge the airline out of 50-seaters, especially with current scope clause restrictions on increasing 76-seaters. Outside of them, I can't see anybody else being interested, since global demand for 100-seaters is still sluggish, even with the ultra-efficient engines that are going onto the next generation aircraft.
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That's not actually the reason Hawaiian (and Delta to some extent) want them.

There is no other aircraft out there right now that has the turn time and short segment (due to MX and engine thermals) performance. If the fleet was bigger there are a bunch of other carriers that would want them.
 
BobDDuck said:
That's not actually the reason Hawaiian (and Delta to some extent) want them.

There is no other aircraft out there right now that has the turn time and short segment (due to MX and engine thermals) performance. If the fleet was bigger there are a bunch of other carriers that would want them.
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This was a bit a bit of a generalization on my part, especially projecting onto HA, so I apologize - I'm not familiar enough with the architecture to know why the BR715 engine is better suited to Hawaiian flying than other options. What is it about the BR715 that makes it better suited to this high-cycle / hot / salty operation?

That being said, for DL, I still suspect it has more to do the overall economic package (relative aircraft performance, the cheap price tag, and the ability to add more 70/76-seaters) that drove the decision. Delta turns their 717's in 35-45 mins, so turn time/engine cooling shouldn't be an issue - plenty of other types, including 737s and A320s, turn in the same amount of time and in some cases, less time. Before they landed on the CSeries they had chosen the E190 as the next-best option, so clearly it was capable of handling DL's needs.

Given how out-of-favor 100-seaters are at the moment, I think it's a stretch to say that a bunch of other carriers would want them, but as I said above I agree with the general premise: as a current-generation 100-seater, I think the 717 would have been a well-suited competitor in the 100-seat market. Certainly better than the 737-600 which unfortunately killed it off and killed off any hope Boeing had in this segment of the market.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yeah, sure he was. :rolleyes:
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I really don't think anyone is ballsy enough to joke about a plane crash where the pilots didn't at least have a fighting chance. It'd be bad karma.

That's almost like "Ha ha, they almost forgot the gear" because, almost guaranteed in the next few days, "TOO LOW, GEAR!!"
 
BobDDuck said:
That's not actually the reason Hawaiian (and Delta to some extent) want them.

There is no other aircraft out there right now that has the turn time and short segment (due to MX and engine thermals) performance. If the fleet was bigger there are a bunch of other carriers that would want them.
Click to expand...
Why is the thing so slow to accelerate, incidentally? There was all sorts of commotion in SLC this summer with the 717 being unable to make one of the restrictions on departure there.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Why is the thing so slow to accelerate, incidentally? There was all sorts of commotion in SLC this summer with the 717 being unable to make one of the restrictions on departure there.
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ATN_Pilot said:
It’s really not.
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As Todd said, fundamentally it really shouldn't be so slow to accelerate. The engines are plenty powerful, assuming you're not using massive derate - it's thrust-to-MTOW ratio actually rivals that of the 752. The wing is also plenty large to help it get off the ground quicker and to help in the climb - again, the ratio of wing-area to MTOW rivals that of the 752.

Wonder if it was related to something else?
 
Ecl!pse said:
As Todd said, fundamentally it really shouldn't be so slow to accelerate. The engines are plenty powerful, assuming you're not using massive derate - it's thrust-to-MTOW ratio actually rivals that of the 752. The wing is also plenty large to help it get off the ground quicker and to help in the climb - again, the ratio of wing-area to MTOW rivals that of the 752.

Wonder if it was related to something else?
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The 739 guys I rode back with were making fun of the fact that there was a big long notice applicable to the 717 for SLC's departures - "Ai yo, don't retract those slats early" or some such.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
The 739 guys I rode back with were making fun of the fact that there was a big long notice applicable to the 717 for SLC's departures - "Ai yo, don't retract those slats early" or some such.
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Could be something weird in DAL procedures I suppose, but the plane is not inherently slow to accelerate. Far from it. They could be using TO2 de-rate, though, and that would make a big difference.
 
Derg said:
I really don't think anyone is ballsy enough to joke about a plane crash where the pilots didn't at least have a fighting chance. It'd be bad karma.
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Considering I had a personal connection to that crash, but,it’s cool. At least when Todd accuses me of being a troll, playa recognizes game!
 
skatergeek said:
Yup ATL is getting backed up. When I went through a couple months ago everyone was sent there for a week or so. Now a lot of guys are going to LAS for all the full motion stuff... Lots of training on the ole 88 lately.
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I guess DAL has a 2 year lease on the -88 sim at LAS while updates are being made to the ATL ones. Meanwhile he -82 sim there only has one customer from what I gather.
 
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