Yes, it's that time again... Quickest upgrade?

Upgrades really even shouldn't be a factor in the decision. Example: guys hired at 9E in 2007 were looking at a 1 year upgrade. Fast forward a year....they're still FOs. The entire time they were there for that 1 year, guys were upgrading left and right. Then, when it was their turn.....the music stopped. When it starts again, they may or may not have the seniority to upgrade. The low time guys hired that didn't have the time to upgrade that were senior to them? Yeah, they've all got the time to upgrade now.

Here's the straight scoop. The upgrade time today will not be the same as it is in a year. It may be shorter, it may be longer. Unless you've got the hours AND the seniority to go straight into the left seat, upgrade time is a moving target that shouldn't even factor into your equation when looking at a regional job. Hell, even Eagle's upgrade time could go from 7 years down to 3 under the right circumstances and movement. Colgan's could go from 1 year to 4 years just as quickly.
 
I've carefully considered everything you've said, graybeards, but where's the quick upgrade right now? It's just like a uh factor in my uhm decision making process, but I'm Captain Material, my Mesa instructor said so. So really, cut back the preachy old man nonsense and tell me where I can get those four bars most ricky tick. Thanks.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I've carefully considered everything you've said, graybeards, but where's the quick upgrade right now? It's just like a uh factor in my uhm decision making process, but I'm Captain Material, my Mesa instructor said so. So really, cut back the preachy old man nonsense and tell me where I can get those four bars most ricky tick. Thanks.
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Come on d00d! Use your head, sell some of your TPIC. Buy a K and you're in the right seat of a -47 tomorrow.
 
C150J said:
One of the biggest problems we had in 2007 was spitting 1,000-hour CFIs out with exactly 25 hours of IOE. Those guys needed more time to cook (or more time to prove that they didn't belong). Most continued developing, but some just stagnated at a level that won't necessarily be detected by an annual line check in good weather.
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Hmmmmm.......do you think p'rhaps it's because of that pesky "thousand hours of experience" vs "the same hour a thousand times" thing?
 
aloft said:
Hmmmmm.......do you think p'rhaps it's because of that pesky "thousand hours of experience" vs "the same hour a thousand times" thing?
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Could have been, absolutely. From my perspective, it was more due to the fact that these fellows had never flown an airline pairing or a jet. Same issue with the 2,000-hour freight pilots: it's not a testament to their ability, experience, or aptitude: just the novel nature of their new environment. 25 hours of IOE was simply not enough. Personally, I think anyone new to turbine equipment and airline flying should fly at least two 4-day trips, followed up by at least a year of sporadic evaluations to make sure they're on the right track (which is what we have now).
 
C150J said:
Could have been, absolutely. From my perspective, it was more due to the fact that these fellows had never flown an airline pairing or a jet. Same issue with the 2,000-hour freight pilots: it's not a testament to their ability, experience, or aptitude: just the novel nature of their new environment. 25 hours of IOE was simply not enough. Personally, I think anyone new to turbine equipment and airline flying should fly at least two 4-day trips, followed up by at least a year of sporadic evaluations to make sure they're on the right track (which is what we have now).
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On my IOE experience, I found the number of hours meant nothing; it was the number of descents and landings.

After 25 hours of IOE I had something obscene like 6 landings. I also had 10 hours of holding in the ball park in Newark waiting for thunderstorms to clear out. So while I was an ace at handling delay programs at the end of those first 25 hours, I had no idea of how to descend and land the plane.

The solution? A 2 day pairing with 10 legs. We didn't fly that many hours, but we were up and down the whole time and, as you may imagine, things started to fall into place fairly quickly.

So I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that for me, descent planning and landing were the hardest thing on IOE for me because I didn't get a chance to do much of either. 3 hour legs are awesome for showing that you know how to change to a new center frequency, but they do little for learning a new type of operation.

Without considerations such as how many legs you're flying, varying the type of flying, blah blah blah, IOE means little.
 
jtrain609 said:
On my IOE experience, I found the number of hours meant nothing; it was the number of descents and landings.

After 25 hours of IOE I had something obscene like 6 landings. I also had 10 hours of holding in the ball park in Newark waiting for thunderstorms to clear out. So while I was an ace at handling delay programs at the end of those first 25 hours, I had no idea of how to descend and land the plane.

The solution? A 2 day pairing with 10 legs. We didn't fly that many hours, but we were up and down the whole time and, as you may imagine, things started to fall into place fairly quickly.

So I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that for me, descent planning and landing were the hardest thing on IOE for me because I didn't get a chance to do much of either. 3 hour legs are awesome for showing that you know how to change to a new center frequency, but they do little for learning a new type of operation.

Without considerations such as how many legs you're flying, varying the type of flying, blah blah blah, IOE means little.
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Very true, and since we can't build a "green pairing" that encompasses what you stated (I wish we could), we've found that more IOE affords better opportunities to:

- See various weather conditions
- Encounter more destinations with AIRPORT QUALIFICATION and FAMILIARIZATION (DCA and LGA mostly).
- Ensure our department that the new-hire is safe and accountable.
- Experience various stage lengths (evaluating fuel burn, high altitude operations, deviating, etc. on the long flights; working at an accelerated pace on the short flights).
- Land!
 
Break out the Magic 8 ball and see where to go. I was 48 numbers from upgrading in 2008 to now being furloughed in April of 2011. Still trying to figure out what to do next. I sent out my app/resume to several places and I've gotten two responses. Eagle and a corporate job flying a Pilatus out of PIE. The corporate gig pays crap and Eagle, well it's Eagle. I'm thinking about doing something totally different career wise now. So if you guys figure it out let me know.
 
Soul Brotha' said:
Break out the Magic 8 ball and see where to go. I was 48 numbers from upgrading in 2008 to now being furloughed in April of 2011. Still trying to figure out what to do next. I sent out my app/resume to several places and I've gotten two responses. Eagle and a corporate job flying a Pilatus out of PIE. The corporate gig pays crap and Eagle, well it's Eagle. I'm thinking about doing something totally different career wise now. So if you guys figure it out let me know.
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Well, if the planets align, I'll be back in MCO in a year or so. We can at least enjoy those alcoholic beverages we've been talking about for years....
 
kellwolf said:
Upgrades really even shouldn't be a factor in the decision. Example: guys hired at 9E in 2007 were looking at a 1 year upgrade. Fast forward a year....they're still FOs. The entire time they were there for that 1 year, guys were upgrading left and right. Then, when it was their turn.....the music stopped. When it starts again, they may or may not have the seniority to upgrade. The low time guys hired that didn't have the time to upgrade that were senior to them? Yeah, they've all got the time to upgrade now.
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Holy cow! kellwolf just summed up my professional life in one paragraph!
 
kellwolf said:
Upgrades really even shouldn't be a factor in the decision. Example: guys hired at 9E in 2007 were looking at a 1 year upgrade. Fast forward a year....they're still FOs. The entire time they were there for that 1 year, guys were upgrading left and right. Then, when it was their turn.....the music stopped. When it starts again, they may or may not have the seniority to upgrade. The low time guys hired that didn't have the time to upgrade that were senior to them? Yeah, they've all got the time to upgrade now.

Here's the straight scoop. The upgrade time today will not be the same as it is in a year. It may be shorter, it may be longer. Unless you've got the hours AND the seniority to go straight into the left seat, upgrade time is a moving target that shouldn't even factor into your equation when looking at a regional job. Hell, even Eagle's upgrade time could go from 7 years down to 3 under the right circumstances and movement. Colgan's could go from 1 year to 4 years just as quickly.
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For the record the most junior CA at Colgan is about 3.3 years
 
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