Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Back when I was awesome(er). Not anymore.
Yes, it's that time again... Quickest upgrade?
- Thread starter Mattio
- Start date
Back when I was awesome(er). Not anymore.
Mattio
Well-Known Member
You are scary.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Max doesn't think so!
Mattio
Well-Known Member
Mattio, stop it with the quick upgrade stuff man. I'm going to log on a little liquored up and talk you down like a 5 year old if you just don't heed the advice about seeking ridiculously fast upgrade times.
Please? Pleeeeeeeease?
Are you currently liquored up?
What if there were an airline that not only has a relatively quick upgrade and also has decent pay and work rules? Would you still talk me down?
The fastest upgrade would probably be Colgan. I could apply to go back there again and I'd already have experience on the equipment. I'm assuming I'd prob leapfrog some other recent hires because of this and my total time. However, that'd be old hat. I'd like to learn something new, fly a different airplane and get paid more.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
You are still TOTALLY missing the point. To save Doug's liver a bit (if it's not too late already) I'll be the bad guy here and say what he's not drunk enough to say.
The airline that has the "fast" upgrade right now WILL NOT have the fast upgrade when your seniority number can actually hold the left seat. Sure, you can try to project what an upgrade time will be for somebody getting hired right now, but unless you can forecast the industry and economy, that's probably going to about as accurate as peeing in a tornado.
That's great you want back in and feel that you have a shot with Delta as soon as you get some more time but you're beating a dead horse. If you really want to get back into the 121 game, fine. Do it. Just pick a place that you could be happy in the right seat for a long time. The thing that get's everybody (well, me anyway) about this is that you've already done this once before. You went to Colgan for the quick upgrade and bailed before you ever got it for your own reasons. That's fine. However, it's pretty obvious you've learned absolutely nothing from that experience and are trying to walk down the exact same path again.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Or something like that.
esa17
Well-Known Member
Yes.
FlyChicaga
Vintage Restoration
When I was hired at my first airline, I was told to expect a two year upgrade. A year later, upgrades were expected to be four-plus years... Until the company went out a business a few months later.
I was lucky to move on pretty quickly to my current company, where I was told to expect a five year upgrade. Two and a half years later, I was in the left seat, where I've been for three and a half years. People hired less than a year after me were downgraded, or have been FOs for five years.
My point? It was really all a crap shoot. I went to my first company, because I REALLY wanted to work there. The only reason I left is because they were going out of business. I came here, because a) they would hire me, and b) it was a reputable company. In six years there have been some ups and downs, but thinks have been OK. There was no way for me to predict how fast I'd upgrade.
I've seen some people chase upgrade. They typically end up being FOs LONGER, they don't ever reach the higher payscales, they don't accrue company benefits (like more vacation), and they have a resume that shows they aren't loyal to a company.
If you want to try and shake the magic 8 ball and figure out where you can be a Captain quickly, good luck. Or you can heed the advice of those here, and find a place to hang your hat and LEARN for a while.
I was lucky to move on pretty quickly to my current company, where I was told to expect a five year upgrade. Two and a half years later, I was in the left seat, where I've been for three and a half years. People hired less than a year after me were downgraded, or have been FOs for five years.
My point? It was really all a crap shoot. I went to my first company, because I REALLY wanted to work there. The only reason I left is because they were going out of business. I came here, because a) they would hire me, and b) it was a reputable company. In six years there have been some ups and downs, but thinks have been OK. There was no way for me to predict how fast I'd upgrade.
I've seen some people chase upgrade. They typically end up being FOs LONGER, they don't ever reach the higher payscales, they don't accrue company benefits (like more vacation), and they have a resume that shows they aren't loyal to a company.
If you want to try and shake the magic 8 ball and figure out where you can be a Captain quickly, good luck. Or you can heed the advice of those here, and find a place to hang your hat and LEARN for a while.
Mattio
Well-Known Member
Yea, I meant relatively quick as a pose to say Eagle... I definitely understand that you cannot pinpoint things like this and things change. I was thinking along the lines of a place like Compass... I've heard that they're losing pilots over the next few months and if I was able to get on there early, at least that would mean a little movement at the beginning of my employ... Not sitting on reserve for as long is also worth a lot to me. Yea, I think things would be subject to change but from what I've heard so far, it doesn't sound like a bad place to be... Try to find out some more about them, though.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Are you currently liquored up?
What if there were an airline that not only has a relatively quick upgrade and also has decent pay and work rules? Would you still talk me down?
The fastest upgrade would probably be Colgan. I could apply to go back there again and I'd already have experience on the equipment. I'm assuming I'd prob leapfrog some other recent hires because of this and my total time. However, that'd be old hat. I'd like to learn something new, fly a different airplane and get paid more.
The "quick upgrade" is a myth perpetrated by the airline industrial complex in order to sell you goods and services and to entice you to jump at subpar opportunities...
And... is that an Adam's Apple?
oh, I'm kidding. Crap, here I was kidding but I think I might be on to something....
"Fast upgrades" are a moving target and always will be. When Y-O-U get hired at an airline known for fast upgrades, chances are that trend has already past and you're going to be a disgruntled FO at a sub-par carrier complaining about how it's been two years and how those guys promised that I'd be a captain by now!
The promise of a speedy upgrade is a lot like a drunken barfly. Sure she's semi OK-looking, she's liquored up and begging to go back to your apartment. All of your friends warn you, the bartender looks over, stops sanitizing glasses and gives you the "Are you for real, man?" expression...
"Woo hoo, easy kill bro! I'll be seein' you guys at Denny's after the club closes! Goin' to take care of business!"
***High fives all around***
Meanwhile, she's shooting up heroin in your bathroom, digging in your medicine chest, there's this strange acrid smell and you're not so sure that slight skin lesion isn't full-blown Herpes.
And then she pisses herself on your brand new Ikea couch.
Anyway, all sarcasm aside, chances are if you're all wound up about who has the fastest upgrade time, you're not ready for it anyway.
If you won't heed the advice of seasoned professionals about the dark side of chasing airlines solely based on upgrade times and about how if you're to already on the seniority list, projected upgrade times mean nothing, how in the world are you going to heed warnings from flight control about taking J-137? Or consternation from your first officer about landing on a field with a stiff crosswind and braking action nil?
You're not, because it's not time for you to upgrade yet.
Mattio
Well-Known Member
I've repeated myself several times that I'm not seeking airlines solely based on upgrade times. I'm considering that amongst SEVERAL other factors. This was supposed to be an educational discussion about one factor amongst many. I thought Compass was among the better ones and they are hiring.... Maybe there's stuff about them that I don't know. I've only applied to Air Whisky (because it sounds like a great company). Are you saying that I shouldn't take forecasted factors such as picking up other airplanes, etc. into consideration AT ALL?
I'm not trying to be a Captain right now. I'm trying to work hard and learn right now, but I want to be a Captain eventually and if I had the opportunity when I am ready, that would be nice. It would also be nice to make a liveable wage but it seems like you can't do that as an FO at ANY regional (at least in my opinion). Again, you guys don't have to get on me about chasing an upgrade, IT'S ONLY ONE FACTOR AMONG DOZENS.
And I wouldn't go so far to say that I'm not heeding advice. I haven't made any decisions and I'm simply perpetrating a conversation to seek further information and advice, certainly a good trait for an FO....
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Mattio,
I wrote this thread a few years ago.
It's called, "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome to the Rest of Your Career".
You might find it insightful. I wrote it after leaving a so-called rapid upgrade 121 carrier for one of the worst upgrades in the industry. How's that working out over time? Pretty well, actually.
Check it out:
http://forums.jetcareers.com/airlin...-airline-pilots-welcome-rest-your-career.html
I wrote this thread a few years ago.
It's called, "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome to the Rest of Your Career".
You might find it insightful. I wrote it after leaving a so-called rapid upgrade 121 carrier for one of the worst upgrades in the industry. How's that working out over time? Pretty well, actually.
Check it out:
http://forums.jetcareers.com/airlin...-airline-pilots-welcome-rest-your-career.html
Nah, pretty much what I had to say is what I already said. No need to take Shakespearean introspection into anything I write!
Orders mean nothing in the airline business, especially when you're looking at a regional. Those orders can and will disappear at the drop of a hat.
I appreciate trying to apply critical thought to who you want to work for, but let me save you a lot of work by saying the industry is largely a crap shoot, timing and the luck of the draw in good times and bad.
People thought I was an idiot for going to Delta -- not like I had load of other offers as it was the only one on the table at the time! Long upgrades, I'll retire as a 727 second officer.
Then I was a genius because we had two year captains, making Enron-level profits and just got a sick raise in 2000.
Then I was an idiot because of pay cut #1
Then I was a bigger idiot because of pay cut #2
Then I was a genius because of post-bankrupcy recovery.
Then I was an idiot for not knowing that we were going to merge
Then I was a genius because the merger more or less worked and we made profits
Back and forth back and forth.
No one's career goes as planned, flows unscathed or has no challenges. It's a crapshoot -- it may go well, it may not go well and there's really very little you can do today to ensure it turns out the way you want it to!
Serious. If you want to fly airplanes, stop worrying so much and go fly airplanes. And good luck!
Hootie
Old Skool
Oh man, the more I talk to guys, that really is the way it is.
Just this past trip had a continental guy in my jumpseat. Thirty years seniority, 777 captain, 18-20 days off a month. Its sure was interesting to hear all the moving targets and ups and downs over the years.
Basically when he got out of the navy he was a GIANT idiot for going to Peoples Express instead of Us Airways. Then after getting bought by Continental, bankruptcy's, the scabs, merging multiple pilot groups, he almost quit but instead was able to get a loa for two years of something. Anyway this guys first 10 years after the navy sounded CRAZY!
A friend I talk to regularly who is in the top 1% at Delta, would be the first to say "It wasn't supposed to turn out this way". Alot of peoples careers went down just by being at the wrong place at the wrong time in history(eastern, panam,etc).
The more I learn the more I realize you just need to get a seat somewhere and hang on for the wild ride.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
What you need is multiple revenue streams, and then you can enjoy the roller coaster instead of wondering if the ride is going to fall apart.
And that's a hard pill for a lot of us to swallow.
It's largely 49% hard work and 49% luck 'o the draw and 2% "other".
And we'll never ever....neverEVEREVER figure out what that 2% is.
Like UAL. That was THE place to be for so many years (don't laugh kids, it was).
Big planes, best bases, quickest upgrades. People left DAL, AMR, SWA, FDX, UPS, etc in droves to go fly that big beautiful 747-400 with only a few months seniority.
Hell, I had guys in my new hire class leave for UAL during our freshman year at Southernjets and there wasn't a soul in the room that didn't think "Man, you know, that'a gutsy move but he's going to recover seniority and money pretty darned quick because he'll hold 777... Any of the rest of you thinking of going? IIIIIII dunno man...."
It was a smart move in 1998. But in 2001-plus, that smart move became a crushing blow.
In 2015? Might have been a smart move again.
In 2020? Might have been an idiotic movie AGAIN.
In 2030? He might have been a genius.
2035? Who knows.
That's the airline business man.
Hell, merger mania is NOT done by a long shot, even for Southernjets if you read Anderson's latest interview and I think we all know who he's talking about.
What's going to happen with the regionals then? All of those dice go back in the Yahtzee! cup, get shaken around again and tossed onto the table.
Shake 'em up shake 'em up, shake 'em.
Very true. UAL was THE airline to be part of and the one everyone was aspiring to in the late '80s/early '90s when we were in school. To make it to the 747-200/400 or the DC-10 there was the pinnacle of success.
The advice about having multiple revenue streams in the 121 busines is very true.