X-Ray machine and laptops?

[pilot602]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ahh! Gotta love outsourced tech support!

[/ QUOTE ]Doug, the outsourcing of tech jobs is indicative of our steadily improving economy! Can't you tell?

[/ QUOTE ]I actually read an interesting OpEd by Thomas Friedman in the New York Times the other day on this very topic. I was going to link to it but the stupid Times makes you pay for archived articles!

Friedman wrote of traveling to India, specifically to one of these call centers in Bangalore that handle American callers from Dell and other companies. He asked the manager of the facility how this could possibly be good for Americans. The guy's response? "Look around you. All our computers are Compaqs. All our telephones are provided by Lucent. Our office furniture is American. Even our bottled water is provided by an American company. Seventy percent of our stock is owned by American investors."

I want jobs for Americans as much as anybody does, believe me. However, while these call-center jobs have gone to India, our exports to India have more than doubled and are now in excess of $4 billion a year. One wonders how many American jobs that creates. (Heck, how many FedEx pilots did it take to get all those Compaqs to Bangalore?)

</7500>

Russ

[/ QUOTE ]

270,

I think we've had this discussion before but ... you're against cabbotage, yet, it's perfectly ok to outsource other peoples jobs? Let's see how much justification you come up with when an Indian fellow is hired to replace you, if "open skies" goes through, and you're scrounging around for a job at McDonalds.

 

[tonyw]

[ QUOTE ]
The guy's response? "Look around you. All our computers are Compaqs. All our telephones are provided by Lucent. Our office furniture is American. Even our bottled water is provided by an American company. Seventy percent of our stock is owned by American investors."

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. Now, how many of those things, with the exception of the bottled water, were made in America?

And frankly, this may sound shallow and selfish, but I don't give a rat's ass about whether or not offshoring a US based job means that ten Indians get them. You take care of your own first, and I'm much more concerned about that one American who lost his job than I am about those ten Indians that got jobs.

If we keep on sending jobs overseas, who is going to be able to afford the consumer goods that we'll be getting more cheaply?

There was an article in the Wall Street Journal recently about how offshoring didn't really return the benefits to a tech company that were expected. And as a bone to throw to the folks who are concerned about how we're shipping jobs overseas, the CEO of the company said, look, since we shipped those jobs overseas, we had to create a $100K a year position here in the US.

If I were sitting across from him, I would have said, oh, that's supposed to make me happy? You created one $100K job and you shipped 30 $75K jobs off to India? Puhlease.

 

[Kristie]

uh huh... goes with an article that we saw overseas...

It was talking about how our gov't says its creating jobs which is helping our economic recovery... said we created 21,000 new jobs so far...BUT -> all of those 21,000 jobs were gov't jobs.. none of them were in the private sector...

so in order for our economy to look like we're recovering - GW created jobs within his own sector...

interesting huh!

 

[FL270]

[ QUOTE ]
I think we've had this discussion before but ... you're against cabotage, yet, it's perfectly ok to outsource other people's jobs? Let's see how much justification you come up with when an Indian fellow is hired to replace you, if "open skies" goes through, and you're scrounging around for a job at McDonalds.

[/ QUOTE ]I never said it was "perfectly OK" to outsource jobs. I merely point out that while the outsourcing is bad on the surface, that if one looks deeper it is not all bad for Americans. As far as cabotage, I am against foreign-flag carriers flying US passengers on wholly domestic itineraries. Providing greater route access is a laudable goal (i.e. "Open Skies" without the cabotage), especially if it provides American carriers with meaningful access to LHR.

Russ

 

[derg]

Ahh, there's always Gatwick down the street.

 

[FL270]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay. Now, how many of those things, with the exception of the bottled water, were made in America?

[/ QUOTE ]Probably not many of them. However, the Compaqs were designed in America. The software was developed in America. The telephone system was designed in America. These goods were shipped from wherever they were made to wherever they are used, probably by American companies (DHL, FedEx, etc.). The point is that building things isn't the only job to be done. The jobs that don't get outsourced are research, product development, marketing, distribution, sales, and administration. We're inventing new and better things in vast numbers every year. What does that tell me? There are still opportunities for Americans who want to design a better mousetrap, even if the guy who builds it is in Bangalore.

Once again ... I don't like jobs going offshore! I wish they could be done in America. However, there are reasons they're not, and it isn't just evil, greedy CEOs. Fewer and fewer Americans are willing to do menial work, so those positions are harder to fill and have a great deal of turnover ... this is expensive. Labor unions and government regulation have also created huge additional expenses for companies employing low-skill workers, and those expenses simply don't exist in other countries. If I'm a CEO and I don't take advantage of an obvious opportunity to improve the bottom line because I feel bad about the widget-makers who'll be out of work, my shareholders would sue me for breach of my fiduciary duty and I'd be spending the best years of my life in a Club Fed ... which apparently, the class envy culture in this country believes all CEOs should do since by being the top guy, they're inherently evil SOBs.

</rant>

 

[pilot602]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think we've had this discussion before but ... you're against cabotage, yet, it's perfectly ok to outsource other people's jobs? Let's see how much justification you come up with when an Indian fellow is hired to replace you, if "open skies" goes through, and you're scrounging around for a job at McDonalds.

[/ QUOTE ]I never said it was "perfectly OK" to outsource jobs. I merely point out that while the outsourcing is bad on the surface, that if one looks deeper it is not all bad for Americans. As far as cabotage, I am against foreign-flag carriers flying US passengers on wholly domestic itineraries. Providing greater route access is a laudable goal (i.e. "Open Skies" without the cabotage), especially if it provides American carriers with meaningful access to LHR.

Russ

[/ QUOTE ]

So, again, it's ok to outsource other peoples jobs – just not yours (or your future, potential job)?

 

[derg]

I'm curious as to know where Compaq designs the computers now?

 

[FL270]

[ QUOTE ]
Ahh, there's always Gatwick down the street.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, but if you believe the public statements of your own employer (and the other US airlines that don't fly to LHR) Gatwick is a dungeon far away from the city that no self-respecting international businessman would be caught dead flying to.

I do have a problem with the notion that British Airways can fly in to some two dozen airports of its choosing in the United States, but only two of the Big Six US carriers have access to the one airport in London everybody wants to use.

Russ

 

[derg]

I think it's a quick zip on the Gatwick Express to Victoria Station (tube megastation) downtown, 'bout 20 minutes I think?

 

[FL270]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a quick zip on the Gatwick Express to Victoria Station (tube megastation) downtown, 'bout 20 minutes I think?

[/ QUOTE ]It is indeed ... I myself have flown in to LGW and used the Gatwick Express, and it works great. However, I was restating (with a little hyperbole, mind you) the statements of the non-LHR airlines (Delta and Continental in particular covet LHR even more than their neighbor's wife!) about the importance of flying to LHR versus LGW.

 

[pilot602]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay. Now, how many of those things, with the exception of the bottled water, were made in America?

[/ QUOTE ]Probably not many of them. However, the Compaqs were designed in America. The software was developed in America. The telephone system was designed in America. These goods were shipped from wherever they were made to wherever they are used, probably by American companies (DHL, FedEx, etc.). The point is that building things isn't the only job to be done. The jobs that don't get outsourced are research, product development, marketing, distribution, sales, and administration. We're inventing new and better things in vast numbers every year. What does that tell me? There are still opportunities for Americans who want to design a better mousetrap, even if the guy who builds it is in Bangalore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes all of that happened, right now. But if the outsourcing continues even these functions won't happen stateside. At which point the argument made thus far is moot. Software engineers are being outsourced liked yesterday's milk. And, actually, management jobs are begining to be outsourced. Which is part of the reason people are starting to take notice.

[ QUOTE ]
Once again ... I don't like jobs going offshore! I wish they could be done in America. However, there are reasons they're not, and it isn't just evil, greedy CEOs. <font color="red"> Fewer and fewer Americans are willing to do menial work</font>, so those positions are harder to fill and have a great deal of turnover ... this is expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bullsh*t. There are plenty of people "willing to do menial" work ... they just can't because management has decided that instead of paying an American $8/hr (plus benefits) they can ship that job over seas and pay $2/hr with no benefits. Not to mention that the facilities these overseas employees work in would send OSHA through the roof.


[ QUOTE ]
Labor unions and government regulation have also created huge additional expenses for companies employing low-skill workers, and those expenses simply don't exist in other countries. If I'm a CEO and I don't take advantage of an obvious opportunity to improve the bottom line because I feel bad about the widget-makers who'll be out of work, my shareholders would sue me for breach of my fiduciary duty and I'd be spending the best years of my life in a Club Fed ... which apparently, the class envy culture in this country believes all CEOs should do since by being the top guy, they're inherently evil SOBs.&lt;/rant&gt;

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh .. so we're not allowed to bash the CEO who makes millions of dollars at the expense of thousands of workers (Kenneth Lay, The Tyco CEO, the CEO of USAir who has an opportunity to walk away this month with $4 million after he guted the pilot pension plan) but it's perfectly acceptable to bash and blame everything on unions? Keep in mind the largest percentage of workers ever unionized was back around the 1900s and at the time they represented only some 25% ofthe total workforce - today unions represent maybe 15% if not less.

 

[derg]

In fact, my brother-in-law, supersmart software design engineer from Texas Tech got laid off last week from his job and such a large percentage of software engineer jobs have been moved to New Delhi, he'll probably have to either change careers or do freelance consulting work.

And THAT's scary because he's got a baby on the way

 

[danielsexton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay. Now, how many of those things, with the exception of the bottled water, were made in America?

[/ QUOTE ]Probably not many of them. However, the Compaqs were designed in America. The software was developed in America. The telephone system was designed in America. These goods were shipped from wherever they were made to wherever they are used, probably by American companies (DHL, FedEx, etc.). The point is that building things isn't the only job to be done. The jobs that don't get outsourced are research, product development, marketing, distribution, sales, and administration. We're inventing new and better things in vast numbers every year. What does that tell me? There are still opportunities for Americans who want to design a better mousetrap, even if the guy who builds it is in Bangalore.

Once again ... I don't like jobs going offshore! I wish they could be done in America. However, there are reasons they're not, and it isn't just evil, greedy CEOs. Fewer and fewer Americans are willing to do menial work, so those positions are harder to fill and have a great deal of turnover ... this is expensive. Labor unions and government regulation have also created huge additional expenses for companies employing low-skill workers, and those expenses simply don't exist in other countries. If I'm a CEO and I don't take advantage of an obvious opportunity to improve the bottom line because I feel bad about the widget-makers who'll be out of work, my shareholders would sue me for breach of my fiduciary duty and I'd be spending the best years of my life in a Club Fed ... which apparently, the class envy culture in this country believes all CEOs should do since by being the top guy, they're inherently evil SOBs.

&lt;/rant&gt;

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time I checked DHL was owned by the German company Deutsche Post World Net.

Also Americans don't like to do menial work, but then I wouldn't consider tech support menial work. I personally know LOTS (5+) of guys w/ various B.S. Degrees in Computers looking for work, who would gladly take a tech support job. Thousands of people went off to college in the 80's/90's and majored in computers, now there are so many w/ degrees and so few jobs, mainly because the jobs are being moved in India and other places.

 

[pilot602]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, my brother-in-law, supersmart software design engineer from Texas Tech got laid off last week from his job and such a large percentage of software engineer jobs have been moved to New Delhi, he'll probably have to either change careers or do freelance consulting work.

And THAT's scary because he's got a baby on the way

[/ QUOTE ]

When I was working for peoplesupport.com I got moved off the "proflowers.com" team (the very next day they "fired" everone left on the team) and got put into training for the "expedia.com" account. Halfway through the month-long training 15 new folks start showing up – all from Manilla. Now peoplesupport had a center in L.A. – they closed it down and set-up shop in St. Louis. So we're all sitting in class thinking WTF. Then we started getting searched by armed security guards as we left from work. We were told they were starting a "second" call center in Manilla. Well, long story short. The St. Louis office no longer exists. And this was all for an $8/hr job which is now being perfromed for something like $2/hr (U.S.). Tell all those folks who lost their jobs how good outsorucing is for the U.S.

 

[aloft]

[ QUOTE ]

"... He asked the manager of the facility how this could possibly be good for Americans. The guy's response? "Look around you. All our computers are Compaqs. All our telephones are provided by Lucent. Our office furniture is American. Even our bottled water is provided by an American company. Seventy percent of our stock is owned by American investors."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a red herring. Taking away jobs from the middle and lower classes to benefit investors in the upper class is a standard GOP tactic that does more harm than good to the U.S. economy. Why? "Trickle-down" economics have been proven false. "Trickle-up" economics--the effect of the middle and lower classes consuming goods and services (which they do at a far greater rate than the upper class can) have been proven true. You take away their ability to consume by taking away their livelihood, and meaningful economic recovery is impossible (look at GDP, not the Dow). Seriously, the Bush administration's head-in-the-sand economic policies are setting this country up for another depression-like economic collapse.

 

[ready2fly]

November's right around the corner, bro.

 

[tonyw]

I agree with you on the menial jobs. Look, we can't find Americans to wash dishes, clean the offices we work in, or pick the fruit that we eat. And then we get all bent out of shape when folks from Mexico decide to cross the border to do those jobs.

My problem is that we are not just shipping widget making jobs overseas anymore. We are shipping the jobs that we told the folks who lost their widget making jobs to learn to do. We are shipping high skill, high wage jobs overseas!

Yes, the customers -- those who still have jobs and money left -- do benefit. But at what cost to America? If 30 $75K a year programmers lose their jobs, and have to take $25K a year jobs waiting tables, that's $1.5 million that the American economy lost. That's $1.5 million less that can be used to buy houses, cars, airplane tickets, and so on, and $1.5 million less in our tax base.

I don't think that it's necessarily wise from a business standpoint to ship jobs overseas. If we keep on losing high wage jobs, nobody is going to be able to afford all the goods that are now being made cheaply in Bangalore and Malaysia.

To me, the issue isn't evil CEOs. It's very short sighted CEOs not realizing that what they think will benefit their companies will not in the long run.

 

[jtrain609]

They're not stupid Tony, they know exactly what they are doing and that's the problem. They know what the end result is going to be, but they'll be out of their company by the time that happens.

Cheers


John Herreshoff

 

[donttouchanything]

[ QUOTE ]

Does anyone know what the affects of x-ray machines are on laptops?
Cheers

[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience Zero. But, stay the hell away from the metal detectors.