Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Different company today there hoss, and if you didn't want to go and your ACP "made you", they were a pansy...
WX Radar Training
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PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
Then you should know the limitations and realize there is no end all be all of how and when you should deviate. It's part art, part science. Guys with limited experience have a touch of both. If you're holding your crews accountable based on some fixed set of mileage avoidance numbers or because they picked up a lightning strike you're still wrong. Stuff happens. The closest I've been to lighting was short final in SLC and nothing but green was being painted in the distance.
You seem to be very black and white on here based on either your management style or experience. We operate in a very grey area. One technique, in one type of airplane may have worked for a while until it doesn't. If I've learned one thing in aviation there are no absolutes.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
No doubt. I've seem some shady stuff in the past from other operators, but "shady" and "Atlas" don't really go together. And that's saying a lot, since as you know I won't go out of my way to sing Atlas' praises right now.
No one has ever "made" me fly, Hoss. Check yourself.
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
Man, I just turned 40 and still don't have the stones to call some one "Hoss", "Boss" or "Chief". Maybe "Guy" or "Friend" but that's about it.
Yea I don't get where this guy gets he can come across like this but who am I to stop him. Maybe him calling me hoss is a sign of respect?Man, I just turned 40 and still don't have the stones to call some one "Hoss", "Boss" or "Chief". Maybe "Guy" or "Friend" but that's about it.
That's funny!
Yeeeeeeeeeeeah, I think I'll just watch this one from the sidelines even though this is like Internet Cat Nip.
Go get 'em tiger!
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
See, now we have a discussion going.
Based only flying a turbo-prop or piston in the Midwest and Caribbean. Everyone is a turbo-prop below 10k btw... I already admitted to being incorrect about painting 20k. Definitely usable to paint in cruise. I've taught/addvocated deviating around green because alot of stuff that paints as green can be bad enough turbulence to pop rivets out of a BE99 or give you a lighting stike in the Metro (thing is a lightning rod), both have happened.
I'm black and white on thunderstorms because even a lowly freight operator has collected and now shared (finally, thanks to ASAP) a lot of data on how to avoid issues and the biggest take away was to take more fuel and not be a cowboy looking for a story to tell. That and changes to how to use the radar. Paint up to find the tops, paint down to check for attenuation, paint 8-12 to find the maximum intensity, and avoid green in the Midwest and Caribbean/SA specifically. @dasleben just stated awhile ago that green gave him a hard time once...
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dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Yes, I did. However, 1) we safely go through green all the time, and 2) the green I was painting was more than likely due to a frozen top, which isn't really applicable in the mid-level environment.
And yes, painting 8,000-12,000' from the mid-high 30s will show you a whole lot of dirt.
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
You don't have to be a cowboy to catch a lightning strike. There's plenty of pics of airplanes on short final getting nailed and they're well below the storm. Meaning, you could be between layers and get popped.
I think the issue several of us have is your "experience" leading you to assert several heavy cargo jet operators are "shady". Yet you've never operated in the arena. High altitude, heavy jets. I can only say I've operated as high as 51,000 feet but in a relatively light Learjet. A 747 at 36,000 feet is a whole different animal. We realize we have our own experience. And not all experience correlates. That's all I'm trying to get at. Maybe I'm nuts.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Man, I just turned 40 and still don't have the stones to call some one "Hoss", "Boss" or "Chief". Maybe "Guy" or "Friend" but that's about it.
No disrespect intended. Hoss hasn't been meant as derogatory since I can remember, if it is, my bad...
I know your background @mikecweb and I think you might be being purposely obtuse is all
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
You have all these experienced jet pilots telling you you're wrong, and he's being the obtuse one?
Judgment, man!
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Nope, I get it, but I have my doubts that 36 is any different than 28... I haven't found FL28 to be any different than 3k and I haven't found turbo-props to be any different than C172s for PIC decision making. The circumstances are different, but the underlying issues have been identical so far.
Maybe I'm making false correlations, but I doubt it. Based only on opinions from pilots that have moved on of course. Maybe I'll form a different opinion on my own when that day comes...
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
The bolded isn't relevant
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
You are. And you will when the time comes. We're not saying it because we're gods of aviation, on the contrary, we're saying it because we have learned from our past presumptions. You don't know, what you don't know. I still feel like that. Especially after bringing a brand new airplane home from the factory. They say I'm ok to fly it but I realize, I don't know, what I don't know.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Eh, there's always been a very small minority that keeps saying stuff like this to me, and they will never think otherwise unless you're flying their type. It's always been, "just wait until you _________" from flying a Cherokee 140 to the Brasilia. There's been no differences what-so-ever so far. Pardon my skepticism I guess...
I don't know what the max gear speed for a Citation X or a 767 is and would never post anything about it or have an opinion on it. I'm fully aware of what I don't know. 6000 hours of total time dealing with convective weather in various airplanes and under 2 air carriers; I have my opinion. So far in this thread, I do think my way is more conservative and will most likely not result in aircraft damage or more than light turbulence. Srew me though...
@Derg, was there anything learned from that hail damage?
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Aiming the bottom of the beam at 8-12 at a chosen distance is going to paint dirt? Well that's just weird!
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
So in the mid 20's, if you're painting the bottom of the beam at 8-12, what tilts do you use to get that result? What range are you looking at? Where is the middle of the beam pointing? Top of the beam?
My point is if you're pointing the middle of the beam at 8-12, you're painting dirt more than anything. I've never tried pointing the bottom of the beam anywhere. I'm worried about the middle of the beam where most of the energy gets returned.
Edit: You're the first person I remember ever hearing talk about the bottom of the beam. I think that's where the disconnect is. Yes, if you are putting the middle of the beam at 8-12, you will paint dirt.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
I agree, the middle of the beam if aimed at that range will paint mostly the ground.
The one assumption I'm making is that everything SA227 sized or bigger has a modern flat plate radar dish that's about 20cm wide IIRC, about a 1.8 degree beam width on each side of center. Round up to 2 degrees to make the math easier. I've usually left it at 0 degrees at cruise in the 227 since we fly them between FL180 and 220. The bottom of the beam would roughly paint the 8-12k level 50 miles out. I tilt down to see how bad it is if I pick up something, and yes, ground clutter would compromise things if you go too far down, but a little bit farther down will not. I tilt up to attempt to find the tops if I'm lower and picking something up. I agree with what's been said before about things being depicted in the 20k range as being pretty serious and above that it's probably going to be frozen and not show up at all. In the 99, 210, and Baron, it had a tiny dish and therefore a massive beam width. Stuck tilting that thing up. Went around everything those things painted as I found them to be pretty useless at finding anything specific about a particular return.
All I was advocating on page one, at least I think I was saying, maybe I was being a •, was that just leaving it at 20k isn't telling you everything that is going on out there. Also, that you should probably go around green or at least find out how intense it actually is by painting lower. It seems like many have their "green kicked my butt once" stories and until they elaborate, it doesn't sound like they bothered to check it out by tilting down farther or go around it just in case.
Is anyone seriously going to tell me that there was no way that that Delta flight couldn't have found that system building in front of them???
In regards to lightning strikes, hail damage, and sever turbulence encounters where I work, it was all traced back to not bothering to take more fuel when their was obviously changing weather along the route, poor radar use training (which has been fixed now), or being "cool". Perhaps it's still incorrect for me to correlate that to other operations but the faster and higher I've flown, the easier the planning to avoid this has become so far. The 99 and piston airplanes were slow enough where standard fuel loads can get you backed into a corner if you needed to deviate a lot. Almost a non-issue in the 227 and 120 with the standard fuel planning we use on the routes we fly. A CRJ would be practically mindless in this regard and I doubt it would ever need extra fuel even with Cat 4 hurricane sitting in the middle of the Caribbean Sea.
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Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
@UAL747400 So what do you do if the entire country you're flying to paints green? Not hard to find in Europe. Are you just not going to land because of your hard and fast rule that you avoid green? All I think most people are saying is there is no hard and fast rule for weather. If you're the guy disciplining guys for going through green and finding turbulence, then I feel bad for people working for you. It's a bad habit to start and doesn't work in other spots. The Caribbean is nothing like most of the rest of the world. This is why jobs discount Caribbean flying as "International".
Best of luck to you and the guys working for you.
Best of luck to you and the guys working for you.