Would think it's common sense but...

mikecweb said:
I've done that and do appreciate what you guys do. I guess what I'm getting at is the attitude of "What are these clowns doing", it's really out of our hand. The approach speed is dictated and if we aren't stable it's a required go around.
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And my point is don't wait til you're literally established on final to be like "oh btw we're going to be at 150 to the marker today." I have no issues with you for needing a slow approach speed. It's waiting til last second to tell me that's the issue.

For example, you've been on finals frequency for the last 10 min. You've heard every single plane before you get told "maintain 180kts til 5dme contact tower". It's your turn now, you're cleared approach. Final says "maintain 180kts til 5dme contact tower." "We can only do 160 til 5dme. Going to tower." Well chit. Now I gotta rearrange the entire flow behind you because I wasn't planning for that. A simple heads up at some point in the last several times we talked and I would've built in the extra space behind you, but now I gotta scramble.
 
NovemberEcho said:
And my point is don't wait til you're literally established on final to be like "oh btw we're going to be at 150 to the marker today." I have no issues with you for needing a slow approach speed. It's waiting til last second to tell me that's the issue.

For example, you've been on finals frequency for the last 10 min. You've heard every single plane before you get told "maintain 180kts til 5dme contact tower". It's your turn now, you're cleared approach. Final says "maintain 180kts til 5dme contact tower." "We can only do 160 til 5dme. Going to tower." Well chit. Now I gotta rearrange the entire flow behind you because I wasn't planning for that. A simple heads up at some point in the last several times we talked and I would've built in the extra space behind you, but now I gotta scramble.
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100% agree with the SA is somewhat lacking in the cockpit at times. But also understand that literally nowhere else in the world would we have to advise approach what our inside the marker speed will be.
 
Nowhere else in the world works as complex and compact airspace with the volume of aircraft as ny approach. It’s like taking 10 lbs of • and trying to fit it in a bucket that can only hold 2.5 lbs
 
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@NovemberEcho

So, I’m sitting at a bar on a cruise ship yesterday and lo and behold, the couple sitting next to me, the women is a worker of yours in N90. In the course of the conversation, she asks, “Why do you guys slow without telling us? It screws everything up.” I literally choked on my Dark and Stormy.

Aviation is a small world.
 
Cptnchia said:
@NovemberEcho

So, I’m sitting at a bar on a cruise ship yesterday and lo and behold, the couple sitting next to me, the women is a worker of yours in N90. In the course of the conversation, she asks, “Why do you guys slow without telling us? It screws everything up.” I literally choked on my Dark and Stormy.

Aviation is a small world.
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Hahaha that's awesome. All I'm saying is, you got airplane A on a 130 hdg. Airplane C is 7 miles in trail of A also on a 130 hdg. Airplane B is on a 050 to merge into the gap. You're busy and working from the final back, one plane at a time. In the meantime, Airplane C decided to slow to 210 without a peep. Now, instead of going to merge into the gap, he's a dead ass tie with Airplane B. That means to undue that 1 tie, my workload increased by 10. At some of these other major airports where they're the only big airport within 100 miles and they have airspace and altitudes to use maybe it's no big deal, but in the NYC area we don't have that. Every where else already has a plane there. The leeway you enjoy in CLT or SCT doesn't exist here.
 
NovemberEcho said:
You've heard every single plane before you get told "maintain 180kts til 5dme contact tower". It's your turn now, you're cleared approach. Final says "maintain 180kts til 5dme contact tower." "We can only do 160 til 5dme. Going to tower."
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When you tell an aircraft on the ILS 4L at EWR to maintain a speed until 5dme, you do realize you're giving a speed until a 3.5 mile final, correct?
 
The problem with flying these jets is that the FAA and "the operators" have taken away some of the tricks you could use to keep your speed up a bit better in a super light jet. We used to only have to be at our final landing speed at 500 AGL, now it's 1000 AGL. We used to be able to use speed brakes at higher flap settings, now we have to "avoid" this. If you do something they tell you to "avoid", and something goes wrong, it's a bigger carpet dance.

Where I work, we tend to fly empty airplanes around more than most. It's kinda fun cause an empty 767 is the closest thing I'll ever get to a F18, but when we are empty or very light, we have slow landing speeds. I've seen 110 on a 757. One clue for ATC is a 9000 series call sign. UPS uses that for ferry flights and they will be light (slow).

Just trying to help you understand. I avoid JFK and EWR as much as possible cause I don't like the chaos. PHL is no better but it's a great city and nice layover.

We are supposed to advise you when we will be slow on final. Sometimes it doesn't get done when you can't get a word in edgewise.
 
Stinger said:
That's what you should always be using, or saying 5-mile-final. DME is from the departure end of the runway, so even if you don't usually say 5dme, it's wrong in the instances that it is being said.
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Stinger said:
That's what you should always be using, or saying 5-mile-final. DME is from the departure end of the runway, so even if you don't usually say 5dme, it's wrong in the instances that it is being said.
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Yeah well for this example I'm using 22L and BUZZD is only 4.6DMe
 
mikecweb said:
NovemberEcho said:
And my point is don't wait til you're literally established on final to be like "oh btw we're going to be at 150 to the marker today." I have no issues with you for needing a slow approach speed. It's waiting til last second to tell me that's the issue.

For example, you've been on finals frequency for the last 10 min. You've heard every single plane before you get told "maintain 180kts til 5dme contact tower". It's your turn now, you're cleared approach. Final says "maintain 180kts til 5dme contact tower." "We can only do 160 til 5dme. Going to tower." Well chit. Now I gotta rearrange the entire flow behind you because I wasn't planning for that. A simple heads up at some point in the last several times we talked and I would've built in the extra space behind you, but now I gotta scramble.
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100% agree with the SA is somewhat lacking in the cockpit at times. But also understand that literally nowhere else in the world would we have to advise approach what our inside the marker speed will be.
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In his last example he wasn’t talking about inside the marker. He was saying when you can’t do 180(or whatever) until a 5 mile final.
 
Stinger said:
like it! I've just seen dme used wrong in too many cases and I like double checking.
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And btw DME is not always from the departure end. It's from wherever they happened to locate the antennae(s). For example, 22L the dme antennae is .2 dme from the approach end. For 4R, the antennae is 1DME from the approach end.
 
NovemberEcho said:
And btw DME is not always from the departure end. It's from wherever they happened to locate the antennae(s). For example, 22L the dme antennae is .2 dme from the approach end. For 4R, the antennae is 1DME from the approach end.
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Yeah I saw that on the 22L approach. Most of the approaches I've seen have it located at the localizer antenna at the departure end.
But now I've gone down a rabbit hole of DME ranging and bias. Apparently a DME antenna can wait longer than the usual 50 microseconds to send a signal back to the airplane. Adjusting that time lets the airport set 0.0 DME when an aircraft is near the landing threshold. Some airports have it set up so the DME to opposite ends of the runway are about the same.

I kinda want to know more about that system now, may see what some of the tech guys say next week.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Hahaha that's awesome. All I'm saying is, you got airplane A on a 130 hdg. Airplane C is 7 miles in trail of A also on a 130 hdg. Airplane B is on a 050 to merge into the gap. You're busy and working from the final back, one plane at a time. In the meantime, Airplane C decided to slow to 210 without a peep. Now, instead of going to merge into the gap, he's a dead ass tie with Airplane B. That means to undue that 1 tie, my workload increased by 10. At some of these other major airports where they're the only big airport within 100 miles and they have airspace and altitudes to use maybe it's no big deal, but in the NYC area we don't have that. Every where else already has a plane there. The leeway you enjoy in CLT or SCT doesn't exist here.
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We dont get any leeway in CLT, its real busy during the banks!
 
NovemberEcho said:
If you need a special speed on final or inside the marker, please don't wait til you're actually on the final to mention it. It can really screw things up for everyone behind you.
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To paraphrase @Derg: Common Sense? What Common Sense? These are the majors, son. ;)
 
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jynxyjoe said:
Ok if I do the full procedure?
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I imagine they'd appreciate that brevity. It sure beats:
"Approach, this is Cessna N12345. We'd like to do the, ah, ILS One, er the ILS One, ah Right, from ... ah, the ILS One Right to a low miss. Then, ahh, .... then head out for vectors to the GPS Two..., ah, the GPS RNAV Two Seven full procedure."
Sometimes I'm surprised it was Postal workers who went postal and not ATC.
 
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