Willing to • myself out!!!

NJA_Capt said:
It is a big jump from a Seminole to an RJ. Ironically, most of the RJ capts I know say that visual approaches are one of their FOs most common problems. Several years of “time building” jobs and a few years flying B1900, J31s, EMB120s help round that out.

You offer a great perspective and I respect your opinions. I think you even mentioned before that your mindset has changed since you have gained more experience.

My mindset has changed. I will say, with absolute certainty, that I would have not wanted to go straight into the RJ from the Seminole with 370 hours like I did in the Saab. I will appreciate flying that airplane more than anything... I learned more than I ever could imagine in my first year on the 340. I still miss it... my heart is definitely still there.

Your first comment I quoted... sadly, it's not only the FOs that have difficulty with visual approaches. Pilots have become super-reliant on instrument systems, and just don't look out the window anymore.
 
On a similar note of what Chicaga was saying (blame the CA!) I was having a discussion with the captain I was flying with last night. The latest edition of the company "safety magazine" has several ASAP reports in it. A bunch of them have to do with autopilots doing strange thing (not wrong inputs, but rather turning left when the heading bug is to the right.... going up instead of going down). The odd thing is that in EVERY case involving an Airbus aircraft the pilots first reported action was to reselect the autopilot mode or switch to a different mode. In not one case did they disconnect the autopilot and hand fly. There were a few reports of boeing a/c doing similar things and the response was split about 50/50 as to staying with the autopilot or disconnecting. To tie that in to what NJACapt was saying, I (and many other relativly new FOs have said the same thing) tend to dump the autopilot at the first sign of trouble, or when it is more practical to hand fly (IE a visual approach). At this stage I am much more comfortable relying on stick and rudder skills then trying to stay ahead of the autopilot AND the airplane.
 
B767Driver said:
Captain's are not being groomed properly. It used to be that F/Os rode shotgun for 10 years or longer and learned a lot from guys who had been professional pilots for 25, 30 years or longer. Now we are seeing 1 - 3 year upgrades from pilots with limited backgrounds. We're leaving a big hole in the development of captains with this profile.
:yeahthat:

...but didn't the Pinnacle deal happen because the engines stalled after getting to slow...then didn't the engines freeze because a relight was attempted outside the inflight start envelope?
Getting the stick shaker was bad, getting the pusher, was worse. Getting them both several times was unfathomable. The unusual attitudes from the stall flamed the engines out causing core lock.
 
BobDDuck said:
. To tie that in to what NJACapt was saying, I (and many other relativly new FOs have said the same thing) tend to dump the autopilot at the first sign of trouble, or when it is more practical to hand fly (IE a visual approach). At this stage I am much more comfortable relying on stick and rudder skills then trying to stay ahead of the autopilot AND the airplane.



I think that's great advice.
 
NJA_Capt said:
:yeahthat:


Getting the stick shaker was bad, getting the pusher, was worse. Getting them both several times was unfathomable. The unusual attitudes from the stall flamed the engines out causing core lock.


For every flight...there are a few numbers I know in my head...without having to look. Those include...high and low speed buffet for S.L., FL180 and FL380...Engine Out Service Ceiling...and the height of terrain I'm flying over. With the FMS nobody pulls out charts anymore...but I always have mine clipped up...for one reason only...to see the Grid MORA. I want to know how low I can go if I've got to get down ASAP.
 
It seems you believe that flying 1000 hours as a CFI, then another 1000 hours at FL200 in a King Air will prepare you for FL370 an Mach .80 in a regional jet.
This is exactly what he's saying and I totally agree with him. What's the difference between FL250 in a King Air and FL370? I don't think the altitude makes any difference, do you? Yeah, there is a speed difference between 270 KTAS and Mach .74 in an RJ, but this speed difference is only a small transition. In an RJ, you don't have to worry about two big props and all the added workload that come with some large turbo-props like Saab's, Brazilias and Large King Airs. You're also not usually flying through all the crappy weather that's in the lower flight levels etc. If anything, I would say the lower flight levels in a turbo-prop with boots is a much more challenging and higher workload enviornment than the higher.
 
jonnyb said:
This is exactly what he's saying and I totally agree with him. What's the difference between FL250 in a King Air and FL370? I don't think the altitude makes any difference, do you? Yeah, there is a speed difference between 270 KTAS and Mach .74 in an RJ, but this speed difference is only a small transition. In an RJ, you don't have to worry about two big props and all the added workload that come with some large turbo-props like Saab's, Brazilias and Large King Airs. You're also not usually flying through all the crappy weather that's in the lower flight levels etc. If anything, I would say the lower flight levels in a turbo-prop with boots is a much more challenging and higher workload enviornment than the higher.

When the person goes from the CFI gig to the King Air how long does he fly right seat?

Also, it's still quite a stepping stone to go from a plane cruising at 90 knotts to 250 no? How does it become "acceptable" for one person to be qualified in our eyes to fly a jet?
 
B767Driver said:
For every flight...there are a few numbers I know in my head...without having to look. Those include...high and low speed buffet for S.L., FL180 and FL380...Engine Out Service Ceiling...and the height of terrain I'm flying over. With the FMS nobody pulls out charts anymore...but I always have mine clipped up...for one reason only...to see the Grid MORA. I want to know how low I can go if I've got to get down ASAP.

With Electronic Flight Bag you don't have to have your charts clipped to the yoke anymore. But not that your plane has EFB!
 
BobDDuck said:
I (and many other relativly new FOs have said the same thing) tend to dump the autopilot at the first sign of trouble, or when it is more practical to hand fly (IE a visual approach). At this stage I am much more comfortable relying on stick and rudder skills then trying to stay ahead of the autopilot AND the airplane.


One of the beautiful things of flying crappy old Seminoles with no autopilot: I'm comfortable hand flying the thing in night IMC and shooting an ILS approach uncoupled down to near mins. Heck, I've done it on plenty of occasions. Now, I'm also comfortable flying a G1000 equipped 182 and playing systems administrator, but I tend to get bored easily doing that.

I think too many of the ab initio programs are concentrating on "200 AGL, autopilot on" and not enough on the actual flying aspect.

As far as the RJ vs. turboprop arguement, I really don't care which one I wind up in. Personally, I'd prefer a Saab or a Beech over an RJ. I'd like to be able to tell my grandkids I flew them before they disappeared.

Now, as far as the guys going into the airlines with 30-50 hours of ME time, but oodles of time in the sim, here's what I say to that. If you're in the sim, you KNOW it's a simulation. You screw up, you get debriefed, laugh about it and try again. It's a little different when you're in the air, something abnormal happens, and you have to rely on training and experience to bail you out, especially if it involves something the sim instructors never covered.

I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter because I'm "paying my dues" as a CFI while people with half my time (in both TT and ME) are getting jobs because of the fancy name on their diploma. I like instructing, but for me, I feel the learning curve is starting to plateau, and I like to feel challenged. Add to the fact my wife and kid are two states away in a land where there ARE no CFI jobs, and I get a little more ticked off. If it weren't for that fact and my desire to get back to them ASAP, I'd probably stick out the whole instructing thing until I could get on with a 135 charter or freight gig. As it is, if Colgan called tomorrow, I'd be all over that job.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
With Electronic Flight Bag you don't have to have your charts clipped to the yoke anymore. But not that your plane has EFB!
It doesn't have an EFB but all the information he was talking about is readily available onscreen. I think the point that he was making was that you need to have backups in place. Sure, complete electric failures don't happen often, but when they do AND your engine starts burning up it is nice to know that you can get down to 6700 feet and push the plane to .84/320 before you start to do damage.
 
BobDDuck said:
It doesn't have an EFB but all the information he was talking about is readily available onscreen. I think the point that he was making was that you need to have backups in place. Sure, complete electric failures don't happen often, but when they do AND your engine starts burning up it is nice to know that you can get down to 6700 feet and push the plane to .84/320 before you start to do damage.

...yea shoulda put a sarcasm tag up. But I agree with what you and B767 said.
 
NJA_Capt said:
Not exactly. I never said the Capt had plenty of experience. He had a lot of B1900 time. He had very little Jet/high altitude experience. He had 5000 hrs below FL250 and a few hundred above. He demonstrated very little knowledge of high alt flight. And his FO (<500 hrs) just blindly followed him. I believe if a high timed/experienced FO had been aboard, he would have never let the Capt get in that situation.


The Pinnacle Crash had nothing to do with altitude and everything to do with attitude. Before the Captain released the parking brake, decisions were likely made that led to his demise. The FDR recorded aggressive handling of the airplane just seconds after liftoff. His Dude First Officer and he changed seats, leaving both empty and the ariplane under the sole control of the autopilot long before they reached the elusive "flight levels." My money says the decision to deviate from the flight plan was made before the engines were even started, much less flamed out and core locked.

Discipline should be taught at all levels, in all situations, in every airplane, in every circumstance. This crew was woefully deficient in that area. Was experience, or the lack thereof, the culprit? Doubtful. On the contrary, it's likely that the Captain had a history of lapses in discipline, and the fact that he survived simply reinforced the poor decisions. Was it the "career path"? Also doubtful. There is no magic progression from one airplane to another, one seat to another, one company to another that makes one safe and instills self-discipline. I'm certain there are other pilots that have followed the exact path that he progressed and are still around to disprove that hypothesis. Could it have been his training? Possibly. Perhaps someone missed the chance to teach him that valuable lesson. Perhaps someone saw that he needed the lesson, but chose the path of least resistance, and let him continue to his doom.


It has been posited on this thread that less experienced pilots are more careful, more cautious, as they know their limits. I would disagree with that generalization, as well. It might be said that less experienced pilots don't know what they don't know. Some might therefore be more cautious, but I suspect just as many might be naively bold. A good number from both camps seem to survive to learn better.

While I hesitate to generalize with any of these qualifications, age, experience, training, career path, etc., I will go so far as to say that the pilot must have SOMETHING to fall back on. Whether it be personal experience gained through hours, or the lessons of others taught through proper training programs, or the reliance on strict procedures designed to help him navigate through unknown waters, he must have something to keep him safe. The crew of Flight 3601 ignored all three. They disregarded their experience, they tossed their training, and they chose to violate company procedures, and they paid the ultimate price.

Why? Again, for the lack of one word - - DISCIPLINE.





.
 
BobDDuck said:
On a similar note of what Chicaga was saying (blame the CA!) I was having a discussion with the captain I was flying with last night. The latest edition of the company "safety magazine" has several ASAP reports in it. A bunch of them have to do with autopilots doing strange thing (not wrong inputs, but rather turning left when the heading bug is to the right.... going up instead of going down). The odd thing is that in EVERY case involving an Airbus aircraft the pilots first reported action was to reselect the autopilot mode or switch to a different mode. In not one case did they disconnect the autopilot and hand fly. There were a few reports of boeing a/c doing similar things and the response was split about 50/50 as to staying with the autopilot or disconnecting. To tie that in to what NJACapt was saying, I (and many other relativly new FOs have said the same thing) tend to dump the autopilot at the first sign of trouble, or when it is more practical to hand fly (IE a visual approach). At this stage I am much more comfortable relying on stick and rudder skills then trying to stay ahead of the autopilot AND the airplane.

There should be no doubt whatsover on how to manipulate the AP. There should be no doubt as to what happens when you push "this button".
 
Kingairer said:
There should be no doubt whatsover on how to manipulate the AP. There should be no doubt as to what happens when you push "this button".


I don't think he was referring to not knowing the autopilot functions, but rather if the autopilot malfunctions in some way it's easier to hit the red button and take over yourself. Atleast, that's what I got out of it, and I do the same thing.

In the CRJ, I notice sometimes the plane will pitch +/- 10 degrees rapidly when you put the last notch of flaps in as the autopilot tries to correct and lags behind. These ocsilations (sp?) get bigger and bigger. I'm gonna disconnect that autopilot and smooth it out instead of just watching it. I think that is the sort of thing he is referring to.

~wheelsup
 
wheelsup said:
I don't think he was referring to not knowing the autopilot functions, but rather if the autopilot malfunctions in some way it's easier to hit the red button and take over yourself. Atleast, that's what I got out of it, and I do the same thing.

In the CRJ, I notice sometimes the plane will pitch +/- 10 degrees rapidly when you put the last notch of flaps in as the autopilot tries to correct and lags behind. These ocsilations (sp?) get bigger and bigger. I'm gonna disconnect that autopilot and smooth it out instead of just watching it. I think that is the sort of thing he is referring to.

~wheelsup

Or you could "hand fly" the plane to FL180 or FL and not have to worry about that.

:)
 
Uh... why would you be putting flaps in when you are going up? I kid... really.

Kingairer, I wasn't refering to what a button did. In fact, I find that many fairly senior guys show a complete lack of understanding of use use of IAS and PITCH mode. It's simply speed mode up and VS down for them. I was refering more to when you get an approach where they are constantly stepping you down and turning you and having you slow (the Mount Vernon Visual into DCA comes into mind) where I find it much easier to just kick the thing off and fly it raw data. I find many people just keep trying to spin knobs to keep the plane going where ATC wants, and they tend to fall behind. That said, I have seen some people use both hands on the FCC to spin two things at once. I've got to problems with that. CRJ doesn't take two inputs at once very well, and if the A/P does disconnect their hands are nowhere near the yoke. Ah yes, the chamelion (sp?) life of an FO.
 
Not directing this at you bob, but kicking the AP off b/c you cant figure out what the AP is doing shows a lack of understanding of the airplane. I think the AP is where most new hires have most of their problems.
 
Kingairer said:
... kicking the AP off b/c you cant figure out what the AP is doing shows a lack of understanding of the airplane.

Leaving an autopilot engaged while not knowing what it's doing shows a lack of airmanship.







.
 
And clearly thats not my point. Obviously if the airplanes autopilot is taking you somewhere you dont intend, its best to take the AP off. But if every other leg you cussing the AP and clicking it off b/c you dont know how it works, thats a problem.
 
Back
Top