Willing to • myself out!!!

Careful Jim,

You are using some "USA Today" info gathering and statistical analysis above. I could use the same analysis to prove that blue uniforms are safer than black ones...and that blondes are safer than brunettes. This is the type of analysis that gives creedence to the fact that liars figure and figures lie.

What is the statistical significance of the facts? Using a statistical test such as a chi squared or mann whitney test use you can determine the level of correlation between samples of the same population. I would guess running a chi square test would reveal a number that would reject the hypothesis that regional and major pilots are of the same population. I say this because the nature of the operations are different. Worldwide theatre vs east coast, mountainous terrain vs. flat, ocean crossings vs non, various fleet types vs single fleet type, number of seats, number of legs flown, stage length...and on and on and on. There are enough non-common variables to throw a wrench into a valid correlation.

Using an analysis of covariance with multiple regressions of the variables involved, you could determine a level of correlation between the groups. The differences and the initial status of the variables can be removed statistically...so that they can be compared to an initial baseline computed for each group. This process will provide numbers called "residuals"...or what remains of each group after the inequalites have been removed.


Your conclusion would have been a more valid had you compared a 1500 hour major captain with a 25,000 major captain. Or a 1500 hour regional captain with a 25,000 regional captain. This would eliminate many intervening and extraneous variables. I would venture to hypothesize that 1500 hour captains in a 747 would produce a much more unfavorable accident rate than what you quoted for the majors above. The reason...the environment is much more complex....i.e. a low correlation between the environment of a major network vs a regional network. The characteristics of the population must be more common before you can make sense of the numbers you published above.
 
Jim,
NTSB data only comes as a result of metal getting bent. Just because metal doesn't get bent is no indication that everything is just hunky dory.
The stats that I referenced came from NASA report data. Much more interesting data is to be found there, hence my links. It also relates the words from the people in the actual cockpits, not the NTSB stenographer. The ones I read were very enlightening and did not sway my opinion one bit.

How in the world you tried to tie in "old school" = "Old South" is beyond me. You must be from above the MD line I guess.

As you put it, you weren't and aren't low time so why are you defending it so hard?? As far as anger is concerned, I think your posts have more of an angry tone than mine, 767 or DE.

And please stop quoting entire posts, you're wasting space.
 
NJA- FYI, metal does not need to be bent to warrant an NTSB report. Injury is sufficient to require an investigation. And looking back through the thread, you have refrenced no comparative stats, only suggested a search of low-timers in ASRS reports. I'll be waiting for you to put up any numbers. Also, Just so you know, I'm from Texas, so I know something about the mentality of 'old-school' proponents as they relate to the Old South. The details may be different, but the obstinance is precicely the same.

You can't imagine why someone who isn't low time is defending low-timers? If you don't know by now, then my telling won't help you.

Anger? I have none. My responses are as firm as they need to be.

As for quoting entire posts, I will do it as I see fit. Wasting space? It's a computer, not a bookshelf. If you accuse me or misquote me, you can expect to see your words in grey, with a sound rebuttal.

B767- I do respect your opinon, and I appreciate your input. Shoot, I think you're a hell of a guy! But I have to be honest- it looks like you're blowing a bunch of smoke. To show my point, I challenge you (or anyone else...) to prove that low-timers are unsafe.

I knew from the moment I hit 'Post Reply' that my results would be refuted and my evidence brought into question. There was just no other option for someone who "knows" that the low-timers are unsafe. But I can take solace in knowing that they are utterly unable to come up with any evidence of thier own. "Conventional wisdom" and the "old school" are outclassed unless there is some evidence to prove thier outmoded claims. So far, there has been none. Anecdotal evidence and opinion only whittle away at credibility.

My problem is endemic to anyone with an unpopular or improbable idea. It seems no matter what evidence, logic, or statistics are presented, heads stay firmly rooted in the sand, noses are lifted with lofty words sniffed out with dismissive waves of the wrist, and timid heads are shook with serriptitious tsk-tsk-tsks under the breath. But, and I say this for the third time, no proof is offered other than popular opionion. None.

If anyone is capable of coming up with better evidence, I am waiting to hear it. Until then, it's nothing but lip service.
 
DE727UPS said:
The truth? What's that? I don't think you can prove your point from statistics.

Bottom line. Do you like having to baby sit 250 hour F/O's? Do you think it cheapen's the industry to be able to buy your way in with low time and low experience? I do....

The Capt will always be there to save the day (I hope), it just doesn't seem right to me that regional Capts should have to deal with this. But like I said, it will never be my problem. If having to baby sit these guys doesn't bother you, then I guess it shouldn't bother me.


I agree. It cheapens the industry and also puts the process in motion for a bad situation...whereby...low timer gets hired...finds himself upgrading at 1500 hours and maybe 1 - 2 years in a Part 121 job...heck any job for that matter. Definitely not ideal.

Having said that...the regionals enjoy a stellar safety record because by far and away most regional pilots are excellent with a stellar level of experience. I would think it's a minority...those hired with very low time. But nonetheless...that profile is out there...and growing...and definitely providing some level of risk.
 
"If anyone is capable of coming up with better evidence, I am waiting to hear it"

My evidence is you saying you've flown with 250 hour F/O's, you didn't have to babysit them, and you think there is nothing wrong with a system that allows such a low time pilot to be a cockpit crewmember in a jet that says Continental or United on the side of it.


Come on Jim, you can do it. That's the evidence I'm waiting for.....
 
Jim may not need to defend "low timers" but as someone who was sitting right seat of an airliner at under 1000 total time I resent the implication that the flights I was working at that point were "unsafe" simply because I hadn't eclipsed some pre-concieved, arbitrary number in my logbook. I don't know what you guys think they do with us in the simulators before they cut us loose on the line, but trust me, as you should know, there's real pressure in those things when you get multiple failures and your job is on the line if you screw it up. I've jumpseated on "the majors" with newhires in the right seat and it's the almost exactly the environment that existed in the cockpit on my first few tripss off IOE. Close supervision by the captain, but by no means does the FO's inexperience place the safety of the operation in serious jeopardy.
 
Alchemy, again you hit the nail on the head. We've got them on the run; you can expect to see almost anything posted in rebuttal except proof that low-timers are unsafe.

DE727, do a little more back checking before you post something so condescending. ExpressJets minimums have never been 250 hours, and Colgans are currently 1000/100.

And again, no numbers presented. Just a bunch of talk.
Still waiting.
 
I realize that to these guys, who've been flying for as long as I've been alive, I sound like a wet-behind the ears know-it-all, disrespectful kid, and I probably am. I guess I can have my opinion until the day that I'm lucky enough to be sitting on the other side of the cockpit (if that day ever comes), and the 250 hr wonder kid DE talks about sits down next to me and proves me wrong. In the meantime I will continue to respect and value experience, like I always have, but at the same time will survey people based on their individual merits rather than experience levels alone.
 
CapnJim said:
To show my point, I challenge you (or anyone else...) to prove that low-timers are unsafe.

.

Well I think different guys have given you some quantitative information that suggests that time under 1000 hours TT is a fairly dangerous point in a pilot's development. I have no doubt that insurance underwriters have that data in more detail...given the rates and insurability requirements for pilots of varying experience levels. I might see if I can't track that data down from some of my actuary friends.

From a qualitative standpoint...all I can go on is my observations of others and my own personal experience and development level from stages in my past.

Low time can be relative. If I've only got a few hundred hours in a 767...I'm not going to be the most qualified pilot in my position. Someone with 5000 hours in type and 8 years as a 767 F/O is going to be a much better F/O than me due to accumulated levels of experience in type. If I've got 10 years as an F/O and I'm flying with a Captain who has 30 hours in the airplane...I as the F/O very well may be the most capable person in the cockpit. It doesn't mean I have the right to make decisions for the Captain. But most Captains in this position...will brief the F/O...that..."hey...watch me and let me know if I can do something better...as my learning curve is steep right now".

This is also why the FAA puts pairing limits on low time guys flying together. Because it's not very safe and escalates the level of risk.

Now...as I transition to a new airplane...with low time in type...I'm a bit of a liability for a while and will need to rely on the advice of a more experienced pilot until I get things figured out. Usually by 300 hours in a new airplane...I'm feeling very confident. By 1000 hours...bring it on...I'm ready for anything. But all the while...I have lots of time in other types...to help me through the transition. And past experience, no doubt, enables me to transition comfortably in a minimum amount of time.

Bring a guy with 500 total time into a new situation...and he doesn't have as much experience to fall back on. Not only does he have to learn his new airplane type...but he still has to learn how to fly IFR, multi engine airplanes, and get used to the pace of a faster operation. Can he "git-r-done"? Most probably. But also probably at some increased level of risk for a while.

A pilot with 1500 hours of quality flying should more capable than one with 500 hours. He will be somewhat of a liability in his new type for awhile...as pilots of any experience level would be...but his battle readiness should be a bit more formidable given his extra level of preparedness coming into the job.

This is why I feel that a higher minimum than 1000 hours should be required for the advanced pace of an airline operation.
 
"ExpressJets minimums have never been 250 hours"

From the FSA wesite where folks got on at "Express Jet", isn't that who you work for?


"Karina Azuri
Terry Datillio (AATP)
Mat Donahue (AATP)
Phil Keeter (AATP)
Keily Kvamme
Robert Munson (AATP)
Eric Schneider
Justin Shull (AATP)
Scott Zavoda"

"Advanced Airline Training Program Path" (AATP)

Your sights are set on becoming an airline pilot. The Advanced Airline Training Program is the most direct route to a position as a first officer with a regional airline. To be selected for this intensive, four-phase program, you must meet the minimum requirements and successfully complete the application process. If selected, you will begin the challenging four-phase program with an evaluation of your single-engine and multi-engine skills (Phases I and II) which must meet the Commercial Pilot Standards (note: phases I and II are not required for Academy CIME graduates). Once you meet those standards, you’ll interview with one of the participating airlines. If the interview is successful, you will be given a Conditional Offer of Employment (C.O.E.) allowing you to continue with the program. You will then undergo line operational experience at the ATP level in a Seminole aircraft (Phase III) followed by advanced systems training in the ERJ 145 Level “D” simulator (Phase IV). Upon successful completion of Phase IV, you will then proceed to Basic Indoctrination Training with your chosen airline."

AATP equals super low time jet F/O's, as in ab initio.

Guess you haven't had to fly with one yet. Still not sure what you see as "condescending" in my post. Just trying to get at some facts. Is Coex not part of FSA's ab initio program? Have you ever flown with a 250 hour F/O?

Don't mean to be condescending. Just trying get your opinon and facts about whether you've flown with a 250 F/O or not....

I think I've asked you twice now and not got a straight answer.
 
"but at the same time will survey people based on their individual merits rather than experience levels alone"

Now we are gettting somewhere. What's the difference between merits and experience levels?
 
"Bring a guy with 500 total time into a new situation...and he doesn't have as much experience to fall back on."

Ex-freaking-zactly....that's always been my whole point.
 
mer·it ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mrt)
n.

Superior quality or worth; excellence: a proposal of some merit; an ill-advised plan without merit.
A quality deserving praise or approval; virtue: a store having the merit of being open late.
Demonstrated ability or achievement: promotions based on merit alone.
An aspect of character or behavior deserving approval or disapproval. Often used in the plural: judging people according to their merits.

Total flight time is just one "merit" a pilot may have. Observed ability and behavior, attitude, professionalism, knowledge, reliability, etc are other merits.

I am in complete agreement with B767driver in saying that an FO with a couple of thousand hours in type is a "better" FO than someone just off IOE fresh out of the sims, but I would stop short of calling the new FO "unsafe" based solely on the number in his or her logbook.
 
727-
The "You can do it Jim..." seemed condescending. You don't champion my position, and you don't want me to "do it". It's a flasehood, and as such, comes across as condescending. If that wansn't the intent, I apologize and retract the statement. As for FSA, does it mention the hours those folks had when they were hired? It's not outside the realm of posibility that the mins were lowered for some kind of intership, but I do know that XJT hiring from the street has never been lower then 600/100.

Alchemy-
I hope we can fly together someday. I also want to congratulate you on bringing up the idea of the "preconcieved, arbitrary number". How true! The old-schoolers are all up arms, challenging me to disprove numbers they themselves made up, and then when I do it, they guffah and harumph, and declare imperiously that my facts are wrong, without once offering proof that thier own foundless and circumstantial theories are correct.

B767-
Are we using GA insurance info now? Can we compare "low-timers" to "low time in type"? Please don't take my tone as belligerent- I do believe if anyone here will prove me wrong, it'll be you.


I am bound to hear all manner of claims now, from the eloquent to angry to falsly superior, but they will all have one thing in common: No numbers.
I should hope by now that you all know how I work: If I have an idea that I believe in I will argue it mercilessly untill I am proven wrong. I am a natural champion of underdogs and unpopular opinions- they are both more interesting and more challenging to defend. If proven wrong I will concede defeat graciously and congratulate the victor; I prefer truth to pride. But I can tell you that we are a long, long way from that point, and with every passing day without incident from the low-timers, my opponents positon grows weaker and weaker. How frustrating it must be! At what point does it become easier to side with the underdog than go down with the steamship? I can't wait to find out.
Still waiting on those numbers.
 
"but I would stop short of calling the new FO "unsafe" based solely on the number in his or her logbook."

Fair enough. But do you think 250 hour pilots have the experience and background to be hired as 121 crewmembers on a jet that says Continental or United on the side of it?
 
CapnJim said:
My problem is endemic to anyone with an unpopular or improbable idea. It seems no matter what evidence, logic, or statistics are presented, heads stay firmly rooted in the sand, noses are lifted with lofty words sniffed out with dismissive waves of the wrist, and timid heads are shook with serriptitious tsk-tsk-tsks under the breath. But, and I say this for the third time, no proof is offered other than popular opionion. None.

If anyone is capable of coming up with better evidence, I am waiting to hear it. Until then, it's nothing but lip service.

Ironically enough....this very statement, word for word, could have been written by anyone on our side of this equation. It wouldn't matter to you if we gave statistics signed by GWB, USAIG and Herb K, you still wouldn't believe us. So until such time, we will have to rely on personal experiences to drive our opinions.

Such personal experiences are a privilege that some people can look back on and compare. Us old schoolers (which one day all will be), can relate to being "low timers" and compare with our experiences over time to get an objective comparison. A low time (whatever that may be) pilot does not have that luxury until such time that he is a "high timer." By then, I will guarantee that his opinion of himself has changed.
 
So until such time, we will have to rely on personal experiences to drive our opinions.

Personal experiences, what do those matter? Unfortunately no much around here sometimes.:confused:
 
"As for FSA, does it mention the hours those folks had when they were hired? It's not outside the realm of posibility that the mins were lowered for some kind of intership, but I do know that XJT hiring from the street has never been lower then 600/100."

Are you saying that FSA ab initio guys don't get hired at XJT unless they have 600/100? Or that FSA ab inito guys are intern's?

I'll leave it for you to do some research on. From the FSA website:

"The ExpressJet Direct Track requires a Commercial Instrument Multi-Engine rating with at least 400 total hours and 100 hours of multi"

Other airlines require less.

"Our ASA and TransStates Direct Track programs require only a Commercial Instrument Multi-Engine rating. No minimum hours are required"

Maybe that was what I was thinking of....
 
727, I have no idea what agreement FSA had with XJT, nor do I know of anyone who was hired at XJT with 250 total time. Do you?

How utterly and completely false, NJA. You nor anyone else has presented any statistics whatsoever to back what you have just stated to be simply an opinion. By contrast, I have compiled and presented FAA and NTSB data showing my idea to be founded in truth, with no competing numbers to show me wrong.
As you say, you have nothing to back your opinion save personal experience, which I would never be so bold as to equate with scientific proof. Yet more lip service, and no numbers.

Numbers, gentlemen, numbers! Show me with numbers that the low-timer jet pilots are unsafe. Conjecture, opinion, and anecdote simply do not stand up.
 
CapnJim said:
but they will all have one thing in common: No numbers.
Doesn't matter.
Asked for opinions.....we gave them
Asked for references....we gave them
Got your own references because you didn't like ours....does that make yours more right? No.
CapnJim said:
...with every passing day without incident from the low-timers, my opponents positon grows weaker and weaker.
How wrong you are. With each passing day, low timers become high timers. With each passing day they become more experienced.

How frustrating it must be! At what point does it become easier to side with the underdog than go down with the steamship?
If a more experienced Capt was on your steamship it wouldn't have run aground. Hahahahahahahahahaha. (Sorry...had to!)

:nana2:
 
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