Will regional pay ever go up?

[Trip7]

FWIW, most regional pilots DON'T make enough money to pay bills. Thats why flight 3407's FO was living with her parents and used to work at a coffe shop as a second job.

Correct. The top regionals pay their FOs livable wages after yr. 1. Regionals such as Colgan pay FOs very poorly but was downplayed due to the 1 yr or less upgrade. But going to a place like Colgan or Great lakes could prove to be financially disastrous if the music stops, which it did.....

 

[Goonie]

So pay was the cause of this crash?

Way to exploit it everyone!

 

[ppragman]

Where is 1400 hours coming from? Considering that is 400 more than you can fly legally in a year.

Wellllllllll, 135 you can run up to 1400 in a year, however, with the amount of extra time you spend prepping for each flight, 1400TT is probably a fairly conservative estimate of "time spent at work."

If you were to work a "normal job," at $19/hr, here's what you'd make:

52 (# of weeks in a year) x 40 (# of hours in a week at a normal job) x $19.

== $39,520

That's ok, but not really an excellent wage by any metric you use.

Yet for some reason we think that $39,520 is a good wage for a regional pilot. In fact, we think that less is more sufficient.

 

[DC10FlyBy]

experience prior to taking the $19k/year job "back in the day" was so much superior to everyone else's experience prior to taking the $19k/year job now.

Even if this was sarcasm, it's so true.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Correct. The top regionals pay their FOs livable wages after yr. 1. Regionals such as Colgan pay FOs very poorly but was downplayed due to the 1 yr or less upgrade. But going to a place like Colgan or Great lakes could prove to be financially disastrous if the music stops, which it did.....

ASA pays second year guys $35, which I think is a fair, decent wage. Why not just pay the first year guy that?

 

[Orange Anchor]

Pay will go up when the number of qualified pilots sending in applications go down.

The infamous Johnny O was asked about raising pilot pay once and he said, "Why?" He went on to say as long as he had 100 apps for a class of 20, there was NO reason to raise salary or change. There were enough people who wanted the job at the current pay/benefit levels so there was no need for him to change anything.

 

[meyers9163]

14 dollars an hour x 1400 hrs= $19600/yr.
16 dollars an hour x 1400 hrs= $22400/yr.

uhhhh, doesn't look like pay has gone up. just thought i would point that out, nothing personal.

The 14-16 was a range of what he claims the rates use to be. Right now he works at a company that pays some where from 35-38 an hour for second year. However that's not the normal of all companies. Thus if you do the math.

14 x 1000 (the actual number of hours we can fly, not that we actually do)=14000 a year
35x1000= 35000.... to me that seems like it has gone up.

Now is that great? Hell no. Not to be on call or on the road 5 out of 7 days a week. Away from your bed for up to 80 hours a week. Thus you are with your job nearly double of what a normal 9-5 job would require. Just saying. Nothing personal.

 

[MikeD]

The infamous Johnny O was asked about raising pilot pay once and he said, "Why?" He went on to say as long as he had 100 apps for a class of 20, there was NO reason to raise salary or change. There were enough people who wanted the job at the current pay/benefit levels so there was no need for him to change anything.

What sucks is, he's absolutely right. He doesn't raise pay because he doesn't have to.

 

[meyers9163]

So pay was the cause of this crash?

Way to exploit it everyone!

Of course it was not. However the fact of the matter is the general public when hearing the poor wages of these pilots will indeed question if they are in hands of true professionals whom are fit to fly them from point A to point B. At the end of the day now that things are public it appears many factors will be determind to be the cause of the crash. Lack of experience in icing, lack of training on recovery from a stall in the plan being flown, not maintaining a sterile cockpit under 10,000' to just begin. Now dont get me wrong, have I been on planes where under 10000' there's talking? Hmmm yes, however now that this is all being brought to the public eye pay is one of MANY items that will be examined along with work rules. As a PILOT I dont see this being a bad thing for them to examine. Maybe in some weird and cruel way this will light a fire under executives at regionals.

 

[Orange Anchor]

What sucks is, he's absolutely right. He doesn't raise pay because he doesn't have to.

As mentioned in another thread, everyone is going to get roasted in this one. The airline, the training dept, the check airmen, the FAA, the POI, the pilots, scheduling, FAA regs on rest, scheduling, responses to sick calls, pilot pushing, pilots flying without rest, while sick and on and on and on...

Like the Challenger, Columbia accidents, it was the CULTURE and not just a single crew, single event, single incident that contributed to the accident. The problem will be not running down rabbit holes which are irrelevant.

 

[bafanguy]

What sucks is, he's absolutely right. He doesn't raise pay because he doesn't have to.

Not much of a mystery, is it ? When will it change ? When he has 5 applications for a class of 20.

Guess who has control over THAT...

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

When flight instructor pay is sufficient to live on. And why is that pay so low? Because of SCS! (Shiny Cessna Syndrome) People get so excited that they don't have to PAY to fly anymore, in fact they're paying you (even if it is only $10-15/hr or if youre at ATP $1200/mo or whatever).

It's based on the feeling that a flight instructor job is just a stepping stone to a regional airline job which is just a stepping stone to a LCC job which is just a stepping stone to a legacy airline job!

 

[ready2fly]

Just do what everyone else does.

Take the job, then later on spend time on web forums telling everyone else how your experience prior to taking the $19k/year job "back in the day" was so much superior to everyone else's experience prior to taking the $19k/year job now.

:yeahthat: Post of the year, right there.

 

[ppragman]

When flight instructor pay is sufficient to live on. And why is that pay so low? Because of SCS! (Shiny Cessna Syndrome) People get so excited that they don't have to PAY to fly anymore, in fact they're paying you (even if it is only $10-15/hr or if youre at ATP $1200/mo or whatever).

It's based on the feeling that a flight instructor job is just a stepping stone to a regional airline job which is just a stepping stone to a LCC job which is just a stepping stone to a legacy airline job!

That's true, but this career isn't about stepping stones, you can't step your way to anything, you have to slog it out.

 

[Soul Brotha']

When I went to Comair, it was the second best paying regional. I think Horizon was a little better. I knew the upgrade was going to be 5-6 years(now it's Eagle status 8-10 years). I accepted it and took the job but Comair had some of the best work rules/contract in the industry. Now all of that has gone to pieces because there are so many companies/pilots who are willing to do it for cheaper for that quick upgrade. A funny thing happened during that time, majors/fracs/cargo stopped hiring. Now I see guys/gals at places like Freedom/GoJets/etc undercutting everyone just to stay alive. We live in a Captialist society and I understand that. To me pilots are their own worst enemies. "As long as I get mine, I'm okay." How many would be willing to only fly 65 hours a month to save 100 pilots from furlough? Rumor has it at OH that pilots are picking up open time to make extra $$$$. The beatdown squad is in full effect if I find out who.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

5 year CRJ capt at comair: $63
5 year ERJ capt at Mesa (Freedom): $61
5 year CRJ FO at comair: $38
5 year ERJ FO at Mesa: $35

Mesa has BoB on a per segment basis (I don't think ComAir has this), line guarantee, higher minimum guarantee per month than ComAir, etc. We're paid slightly less than you, just how much are we undercutting you exactly? Putting Mesa in the same boat as GoJets is crap and I won't stand for it.

 

[ladder360]

When I went to Comair, it was the second best paying regional. I think Horizon was a little better. I knew the upgrade was going to be 5-6 years(now it's Eagle status 8-10 years). I accepted it and took the job but Comair had some of the best work rules/contract in the industry. Now all of that has gone to pieces because there are so many companies/pilots who are willing to do it for cheaper for that quick upgrade. A funny thing happened during that time, majors/fracs/cargo stopped hiring. Now I see guys/gals at places like Freedom/GoJets/etc undercutting everyone just to stay alive. We live in a Captialist society and I understand that. To me pilots are their own worst enemies. "As long as I get mine, I'm okay." How many would be willing to only fly 65 hours a month to save 100 pilots from furlough? Rumor has it at OH that pilots are picking up open time to make extra $$$$. The beatdown squad is in full effect if I find out who.

First off, your new avatar is awesome! Had me rolling.

Second (and on topic), I'll ask the question again - isn't the idea of organized labor to protect and enhance pay and work rules in the interest of balance of the workers, management and industry?

Don't I remember something about an airline (perhaps Horizon) who offered a significant increase in first year pay which was declined by the union in the interest of protecting the higher pay scales for senior pilots? I can understand the intentions, but in retrospect was that a wise decision?

Disclaimer: That's not a slight on labor - I'm genuinely interested in learning.

 

[wheelsup]

5 year CRJ capt at comair: $63
5 year ERJ capt at Mesa (Freedom): $61
5 year CRJ FO at comair: $38
5 year ERJ FO at Mesa: $35

Mesa has BoB on a per segment basis (I don't think ComAir has this), line guarantee, higher minimum guarantee per month than ComAir, etc. We're paid slightly less than you, just how much are we undercutting you exactly? Putting Mesa in the same boat as GoJets is crap and I won't stand for it.

You're forgetting to include the 15-20% paycut some places took in the past few years and comparing your brand new contract with their bankruptcy, court, or peer pressured (read: other companies) induced pay cuts. Factoring that in Comair guys would be making $8-$10/hr more (depending on seat) not to mention work rules that people at Mesa dream about.

I'm sorry but you can't defend mesa/gojets/colgan etc, their pay and work rules blow. For Christ's sake your company made people SLEEP ON AIRPLANES on CDO's. How can you defend that?

Kinda like saying the majors and LCC's don't pay much different, well that's after they took a 50% pay cut when the courts looked at the other carriers paying much less.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Thats (mostly) apocryphal. I'm not one to defend Mesa Airlines, but we do get a hotel here. I happen to have copies of the last few contracts ComAir has signed, back into the 90s. I'm not seeing the 15-20%.

We'll be in section 6 in another 13-14 months, on schedule with other regionals. We'll see how well that pattern bargaining idea works, ideally all of us going into section 6 should cooporate amongst each other and make the same contract and slap it down and say 'no worse than this'. I didn't vote for this contract we signed, but we have it now and the only thing we can do is look forward.

 

[Trip7]

ASA pays second year guys $35, which I think is a fair, decent wage. Why not just pay the first year guy that?

35/hr 1st yr is a completely fair wage! before age 65 Comair and i believe PNCL offered to raise 1st yr to match 2nd yr because they were so short. Union refused because it didnt benefit the entire pilot group. Now there's nothing we can do to get that leverage back until 65's impact wears out. 1st yr pay will come roaring up. Just wait and see...