Why is having a family such a big deal?

Guys, when you hire people to do a job, you get all of the people-related issues that might come along with it. Certainly if a person isn't a "good fit" for the company due to attitude, personality or experience, that's fine. However, having outside commitments as they relate to your children shouldn't play into hiring decisions, regardless of how convenient it'd be for the company (remember, it's illegal because at some point, someone was unfairly discriminated against). Medevac/charter/airline/freight companies must realize that occasionally things do happen with their employees that could potentially disrupt operations. Management is responsible for adequately staffing the company for such contingencies.

I'm not sure why there's so much anti-labor talk in this thread (though I expect it from O&M), but there's something you'll want to keep in mind: Unless you're top-level management at your company, anti-labor sentiments do a lot more harm to you than they do good.
 
One possible answer to the question when it is asked would be to say: "I'm a homo".

See...you aren't admitting or denying marriage that way. You are simply making a statment. The interviewer will assume that means you are not married, no kids, etc. If, after you get the job and you sign up MsMsHunter and your boy for their insurance benefits they will confront you to which you say "I simply didn't answer your unconstitutional, illegal question - I simply made the statement that I was a homo - and homo's are often married with children". (Rock Hudson was married remember).

If they fire you at that point you can sue them for the unconstitutional question in the interview as well as discriminating against you for stating you were a homo. See, problem solved and you could potentially make millions in the ensuing litigation.

I'm a problem solver!

EDIT:

Also, if you are ever going to have to hire someone, I have always had good luck with homosexuals. FFrom an employer standpoint they are exceptional. First, they generally don't have families. Second, they've usually been mistreated at previous employers at some point - if you treat them decently they will be very loyal to you and not take higher paying jobs for the same work if they are treated with respect and dignity (generally. It helps hold down costs). They will often be available to work extended hours if a project or emergency arises without the family issues, and with a minimum if whining (as opposed to married people or single mom's in particular). All in all they make excellent employees. Additionally, they will often network via phone or in person with the female administrative staff of vendors, clients, etc - and this provides a useful source of market intelligence as well as "favor pulling" if needed.
 
WacoFan said:
One possible answer to the question when it is asked would be to say: "I'm a homo".

See...you aren't admitting or denying marriage that way. You are simply making a statment. The interviewer will assume that means you are not married, no kids, etc. If, after you get the job and you sign up MsMsHunter and your boy for their insurance benefits they will confront you to which you say "I simply didn't answer your unconstitutional, illegal question - I simply made the statement that I was a homo - and homo's are often married with children". (Rock Hudson was married remember).

If they fire you at that point you can sue them for the unconstitutional question in the interview as well as discriminating against you for stating you were a homo. See, problem solved and you could potentially make millions in the ensuing litigation.

I'm a problem solver!

EDIT:

Also, if you are ever going to have to hire someone, I have always had good luck with homosexuals. FFrom an employer standpoint they are exceptional. First, they generally don't have families. Second, they've usually been mistreated at previous employers at some point - if you treat them decently they will be very loyal to you and not take higher paying jobs for the same work if they are treated with respect and dignity (generally. It helps hold down costs). They will often be available to work extended hours if a project or emergency arises without the family issues, and with a minimum if whining (as opposed to married people or single mom's in particular). All in all they make excellent employees. Additionally, they will often network via phone or in person with the female administrative staff of vendors, clients, etc - and this provides a useful source of market intelligence as well as "favor pulling" if needed.
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You must be mid-edit. Caught you thinking out loud. Neener! (You might be a problem solver, but I think you're an instigator more than anything else.)

But hey, you're right. After all, what else is a pilot but a perpetually single, malcontent, paycheck-blowing, woman-chasing, everything-humping, excessive drinking, always-available, always willing, bulletproof, superhuman, ready to be abused airplane moving, profit generator?

Damn MSHunter for not falling into the stereotype- of course they have to ask illegal interview questions to avoid real people and hire stereotypes! The world would be much easier if they fit into the preconceived notions above. Right? Right? :D

Personally, I think he should sue a few of those people. He still might not get a flying gig, but at least that way he'll get paid. No reason he should suffer because a few prospective employers were too stupid or too lazy to treat pilots like real people.
 
Firebird2XC said:
I think he should sue a few of those people. He still might not get a flying gig, but at least that way he'll get paid. No reason he should suffer because a few prospective employers were too stupid or too lazy to treat pilots like real people.
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I don't think he could get away with suing them. It would be very hard to prove without other witnesses or documentation.

Legality aside, I find it hard to believe that only one question in the interview was his downfall. Unless the interviewer specifically said that his family would be a problem there have to be more issues. Gotta look at the interview as a whole. Students do this with their checkrides all the time. They focus on one item but then we find out the DPE has a list of items that need to be worked on. It is almost never just one thing.
 
jrh said:
:yeahthat:

If a person has a family, it brings an entirely new set of variables in to the picture, both for good and bad.

Employers care about those variables.

For example, I work in a small office of 5 employees. One of my coworkers will be taking a two month maternity leave in April. That single event has had a dramatic impact on the way we're structuring the business. Job descriptions, hiring of new employees, pay, schedules, and many other elements related to the *other* employees have been affected by this one employee leaving for two months.

It's nice to say, "Having a family shouldn't matter," but the reality is that it does. If a business has seen a higher turnover among employees with families versus without, that means families are costing the company money.

I'm not saying it's right to ask the question during an interview. I'm just saying that's the way it is and I think it's a bit naive to claim it doesn't matter.
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Then the company needs to do the right thing by keeping their employees, a valuable asset to the company no doubt, by being competitive and countering the other offer of a job with higher pay, career advancement, upgrades and other perks to qol etc.
 
ppragman said:
1. They're probably going to stick around.....

..... regardless, while I don't have kids yet, I'd like to have them one day, its upsetting that hiring managers want slaves.
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Excellent post, Pat.
 
My boss asks if you drink beer in the interview, I am not kidding. He wants someone he can have a beer with. He has said he doesn't like to hire people who do don't like to tie one on after a long week (although we do have a couple non-drinkers).

In case anyone would like to work for someone like that, I started a thread in the "Jobs Available (Members Only)" section.:beer:
 
ppragman said:
So. I have a list of things that "I'm not going to do when/if I ever run my busines/am in charge of hiring. This is getting added to the list.

If you're going to ask about family, do it after you've given them the job. My $.02.
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That's great. I completely agree with you in the goal of having very "livable" job environments.

But I'm also telling you, as someone who has been on the other side of the interview table, that it's just being naive to say an applicant's family situation doesn't matter. When you're running a small business, a lot of time and money hinges on every hiring/firing decision that's made. If you get the wrong person, it can end up being a very costly mistake.

I would never base a hiring decision solely on a person's family, or lack thereof, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't even consider it. For example, take two equally qualified, competent applicants. Both have the technical skills to get the job done. One has grown up in the area their whole life and has numerous family connections to the area. The other person grew up on the other side of the country and has deep family connections 1000 miles away. Who do you think is more likely to stick in your company long term? Not saying either is a sure bet, but be honest...as a hiring manager, you would literally flip a coin when offering the job, rather than consider family ties? I don't think so.

Go run a small business, hire a few people, then come back and let me know if your opinion is the same. It's easier said than done.
 
This whole line of thought is what results from a generation brought up thinking that everything has to be 'fair'.
 
jrh said:
That's great. I completely agree with you in the goal of having very "livable" job environments.

But I'm also telling you, as someone who has been on the other side of the interview table, that it's just being naive to say an applicant's family situation doesn't matter. When you're running a small business, a lot of time and money hinges on every hiring/firing decision that's made. If you get the wrong person, it can end up being a very costly mistake.

I would never base a hiring decision solely on a person's family, or lack thereof, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't even consider it. For example, take two equally qualified, competent applicants. Both have the technical skills to get the job done. One has grown up in the area their whole life and has numerous family connections to the area. The other person grew up on the other side of the country and has deep family connections 1000 miles away. Who do you think is more likely to stick in your company long term? Not saying either is a sure bet, but be honest...as a hiring manager, you would literally flip a coin when offering the job, rather than consider family ties? I don't think so.

Go run a small business, hire a few people, then come back and let me know if your opinion is the same. It's easier said than done.
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Do what you want, but you're really opening yourself up to a lawsuit that might be even more costly.
 
Hacker15e said:
This whole line of thought is what results from a generation brought up thinking that everything has to be 'fair'.
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Says the man who has a government job with benes, time off, decent pay, and healthcare options for as many kids as he wants.

Isn't "FAIR" a GOOD thing? Don't we want things to be fair? Isn't that what we're striving for? Not that everyone has the same chances, but rather, everyone has an equal opportunity at those chances?

And JRH, I intend to, just not quite yet, with the whole "lack of money" thing.
 
Hacker15e said:
This whole line of thought is what results from a generation brought up thinking that everything has to be 'fair'.
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Maybe if we didn't have to make up for generations of societal views and hiring practices that were any thing but 'fair', we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm 35 so I'm not sure what "generation" that makes me. I think you may confusing "fair" with "entitlement”. :)
 
dasleben said:
Do what you want, but you're really opening yourself up to a lawsuit that might be even more costly.
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How so?

Pregnancy, and *sometimes* marital status, are the only two commonly protected characteristics that could be considered discrimination against "family."

Some areas of discrimination law are very, very clear, such as racial discrimination. Other issues, like what I talked about, are not nearly as clear cut. It depends on so many factors, and is such a blend of circumstances, that it's hard to prove or disprove anything.

I get the sense from a lot of people that because we live in America, if an applicant looks good on paper and answers questions correctly, they automatically should get the job. If they don't, it must be discrimination. Better lawyer up and file a lawsuit. Give me a break. That's not a good way to get by in life.

They forget that employers still have freedoms and protections, too.

I think everyone would benefit from a little research on the topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_discrimination_law_in_the_United_States
 
Do you really want to work somewhere that doesnt want you to have a family? Sounds like a crappy place to work...
 
jrh said:
How so?

Pregnancy, and *sometimes* marital status, are the only two commonly protected characteristics that could be considered discrimination against "family."

Some areas of discrimination law are very, very clear, such as racial discrimination. Other issues, like what I talked about, are not nearly as clear cut. It depends on so many factors, and is such a blend of circumstances, that it's hard to prove or disprove anything.

I get the sense from a lot of people that because we live in America, if an applicant looks good on paper and answers questions correctly, they automatically should get the job. If they don't, it must be discrimination. Better lawyer up and file a lawsuit. Give me a break. That's not a good way to get by in life.

They forget that employers still have freedoms and protections, too.

I think everyone would benefit from a little research on the topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_discrimination_law_in_the_United_States
Click to expand...

One day you'll find yourself on the other end of the table. I only hope that you might see just why a company doesn't have the right to pry into every aspect of a person's life, and why these laws exist to protect workers. Good reading: http://www.workplacefairness.org/family-responsibilities-discrimination?agree=yes

SIUav8er said:
Do you really want to work somewhere that doesnt want you to have a family? Sounds like a crappy place to work...
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No kidding...
 
SIUav8er said:
yeah, when you join... but once youre in, dont military members with families get hooked up with better housing, more pay, etc?
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IMO, the military deals with family reluctantly.........kind of the whole if they could have their way, if they wanted you to have a family they'd issue you one. Sure, there's all this lip service about family this, that, etc, etc.
 
dasleben said:
One day you'll find yourself on the other end of the table. I only hope that you might see just why a company doesn't have the right to pry into every aspect of a person's life, and why these laws exist to protect workers.
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Where did I say anything about a company having a right to pry into every aspect of a person's life??? That's completely off base.

Throughout this entire thread, I've simply been explaining legitimate reasons why employers *do* take into consideration a person's family, whether you like it or not.

dasleben said:
Good reading: http://www.workplacefairness.org/family-responsibilities-discrimination?agree=yes
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Yes, that is good reading. It supports my points quite well.

Notice the very limited number of laws that actually define familial discrimination (section 6).

Also notice the lines that begin by saying, "While this may appear to be a form of marital status or familial discrimination, it is probably not illegal." That's what I've been trying to emphasize all along. You might not like the way a company does or doesn't work with your family, but that doesn't mean it's against the law. A lot of people think a lot of things are "discrimination" when in reality, that's life. A person just has to deal with it.

There's a BIG difference between, "This is a crappy company to work for. Don't bother applying if you care about your family," versus, "This company is illegally discriminating against prospective employees. They should be sued."
 
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