Why I Left an Airline Pilot Career

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Hah, first off, you know me at least well enough to know that comparison is not accurate... at all.

And you know me at least well enough to know that I wouldn't be using poorly treated slave labor in third world countries. Yet here we are in this discussion, just because I'm an old school capitalist Democrat instead of a new school AOC socialist.

Secondly, that's great, but I wonder how often that is the case, or if it's the exception to the rule.

I think it varies widely. In my industry we have companies who hire people in Mexico directly and pay little, and then there are also plenty of companies like mine who go through respected Mexican staffing agencies who pay well and provide full benefits. Which is why a broad brush shouldn't be painted on this sort of thing. The idea that "Mexicans are bad, 'mkay" is silliness. It reeks of Trump style nationalism.

You're still ultimately benefiting from relatively cheap labor that's ultimately undercutting jobs here.

So? Why is a human who happens to have been born in America entitled to an upper-middle class lifestyle at the expense of three Mexicans who could otherwise have that upper-middle class lifestyle? Now the company suffers because it can't hire as many workers, the customers suffer because the company is understaffed and service isn't nearly as good, and two extra people are stuck in poverty who could have lived good lives instead. You think this is better? You just aren't addressing the moral question here. You just want to favor Americans by pure virtue that they're Americans. Which isn't a skill or an accomplishment. It's a fluke of luck at birth. I don't privilege Americans over other humans. A human is a human. Where can my dollar do the most good? That's what matters.

It kind of reminds me of the backlash against NAI, SkyWest, GoJet, but then IMO doing something sort of similar.

NAI was a safety issue. Well, maybe not NAI in particular, but the "flag of convenience" model is a safety issue. Other countries don't have the safety structures in place in their airline industries that we do. If there was an equivalent level of safety, it would be a different story.

Is it ultimately that different than if United contracted out a bunch of Canada stuff to Jazz somehow? Or since we're going with the Trump comparisons, what are your views on companies like Carrier or auto manufacturers up and sending a bunch of their union jobs to Mexico and shuttering plants here?

These are entirely collective bargaining issues. It is up to United, Carrier, etc. employees to negotiate their own labor protective provisions. If you're asking me whether I think it's immoral for Carrier to outsource jobs, absolutely not! In fact, it's likely MORE moral for them to do so, assuming they're paying employees in those other countries well. They can likely employ five to six times as many people at the same cost, benefiting a far larger number of humans and reducing worldwide poverty.

There is a certain cognitive dissonance involved with liberals who would tell us that wealth redistribution through tax transfers is a good thing because it helps more people instead of a few fat cats getting to keep their billions, but at the same time claiming that one American having a great job instead of six Mexicans is somehow better.

 

[Roger Roger]

Imagine a world where instead of being wedded to a model of work/employment that has its roots in the 1800s we embraced the ridiculous productivity that automation and computerization have given us and saw nations fighting to do the least amount of work instead of scrabbling for every job.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Imagine a world where instead of being wedded to a model of work/employment that has its roots in the 1800s we embraced the ridiculous productivity that automation and computerization have given us and saw nations fighting to do the least amount of work instead of scrabbling for every job.

Not sure exactly what you're advocating for here. Clarify?

 

[Hiboglossi]

Imagine a world where instead of being wedded to a model of work/employment that has its roots in the 1800s we embraced the ridiculous productivity that automation and computerization have given us and saw nations fighting to do the least amount of work instead of scrabbling for every job.

It's coming, and then few people in any country will make a living wage at all, since there will be so much competition for the remaining jobs. Most people will be obsolete within a few decades.

 

[JordanD]

And you know me at least well enough to know that I wouldn't be using poorly treated slave labor in third world countries. Yet here we are in this discussion, just because I'm an old school capitalist Democrat instead of a new school AOC socialist.



I think it varies widely. In my industry we have companies who hire people in Mexico directly and pay little, and then there are also plenty of companies like mine who go through respected Mexican staffing agencies who pay well and provide full benefits. Which is why a broad brush shouldn't be painted on this sort of thing. The idea that "Mexicans are bad, 'mkay" is silliness. It reeks of Trump style nationalism.



So? Why is a human who happens to have been born in America entitled to an upper-middle class lifestyle at the expense of three Mexicans who could otherwise have that upper-middle class lifestyle? Now the company suffers because it can't hire as many workers, the customers suffer because the company is understaffed and service isn't nearly as good, and two extra people are stuck in poverty who could have lived good lives instead. You think this is better? You just aren't addressing the moral question here. You just want to favor Americans by pure virtue that they're Americans. Which isn't a skill or an accomplishment. It's a fluke of luck at birth. I don't privilege Americans over other humans. A human is a human. Where can my dollar do the most good? That's what matters.



NAI was a safety issue. Well, maybe not NAI in particular, but the "flag of convenience" model is a safety issue. Other countries don't have the safety structures in place in their airline industries that we do. If there was an equivalent level of safety, it would be a different story.



These are entirely collective bargaining issues. It is up to United, Carrier, etc. employees to negotiate their own labor protective provisions. If you're asking me whether I think it's immoral for Carrier to outsource jobs, absolutely not! In fact, it's likely MORE moral for them to do so, assuming they're paying employees in those other countries well. They can likely employ five to six times as many people at the same cost, benefiting a far larger number of humans and reducing worldwide poverty.

There is a certain cognitive dissonance involved with liberals who would tell us that wealth redistribution through tax transfers is a good thing because it helps more people instead of a few fat cats getting to keep their billions, but at the same time claiming that one American having a great job instead of six Mexicans is somehow better.

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of the things you're saying, but I don't think a desire to support American jobs is always some jingoistic, and as you're walking the line of saying, racist thing. It's not wrong to want your own community to grow and prosper, and as much as you want to point the finger at "socialist" types like AOC pushing away middle of the country folks from voting dem, shipping their jobs overseas isn't going to win them over either. They're going to vote for the empty promise to keep their jobs here that ends up shipping their jobs out of the country anyway once they got their votes from them.

 

[Roger Roger]

Not sure exactly what you're advocating for here. Clarify?

Well, a UBI program would be one version. Another version would be the macro version of you, where rich countries outsource work and live off the profits, although that’s essentially what the republicans have been pushing since the 80s and it hasn’t worked out real well for a lot of people. Just seems like with as productive as technology has made us, either fewer people should be working or everyone should be working less (32 hour or less work week?), without compromising the ability to afford basics like housing and health care, which doesn’t seem to be true.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of the things you're saying, but I don't think a desire to support American jobs is always some jingoistic, and as you're walking the line of saying, racist thing.

I'm not saying that it is, to be clear. It is certainly something that can very easily lead to jingoistic thought, though. So you have to be careful. What I am saying is that this is not a moral argument like you (and others) were trying to frame it. You can frame it as a self-preservation thing (like you say, protecting your own community), but that doesn't make it more moral. At best, your position is equally moral to mine. At worst, it's less so because you're pushing a greater number of humans into poverty. And I'm being very charitable by saying your position could be seen as equally moral.

It's not wrong to want your own community to grow and prosper, and as much as you want to point the finger at "socialist" types like AOC pushing away middle of the country folks from voting dem, shipping their jobs overseas isn't going to win them over either. They're going to vote for the empty promise to keep their jobs here that ends up shipping their jobs out of the country anyway once they got their votes from them.

Well, that's a strategic and politically pragmatic argument, which is an entirely different discussion. I'm addressing this from the moral framework, since some people around here just love to paint me as some sort of Republican, uber-conservative, "late stage capitalism," moral monster. Sorry, that dog don't hunt!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Well, a UBI program would be one version. Another version would be the macro version of you, where rich countries outsource work and live off the profits, although that’s essentially what the republicans have been pushing since the 80s and it hasn’t worked out real well for a lot of people. Just seems like with as productive as technology has made us, either fewer people should be working or everyone should be working less (32 hour or less work week?), without compromising the ability to afford basics like housing and health care, which doesn’t seem to be true.

I"m with you on UBI. Which I think is the solution to this problem of outsourcing, as well as the problem of automation destroying jobs. The problem, though, is what Yuval Harari has talked about when discussing UBI: where does the money come from in a global economy without a global government? It's a difficult problem to solve. Automation and AI is going to eliminate those cheap jobs in Mexico, the Phillipines, Vietnam, etc., too. But we can't provide them a UBI. And those countries don't have their own Amazons and Apples to tax like mad to cover the cost. It's a real problem, and I haven't heard a real solution. But I do believe that UBI is the solution domestically.

 

[Roger Roger]

I"m with you on UBI. Which I think is the solution to this problem of outsourcing, as well as the problem of automation destroying jobs. The problem, though, is what Yuval Harari has talked about when discussing UBI: where does the money come from in a global economy without a global government? It's a difficult problem to solve. Automation and AI is going to eliminate those cheap jobs in Mexico, the Phillipines, Vietnam, etc., too. But we can't provide them a UBI. And those countries don't have their own Amazons and Apples to tax like mad to cover the cost. It's a real problem, and I haven't heard a real solution. But I do believe that UBI is the solution domestically.

Yeah, I don’t pretend to have a solution either-but like I said, it seems like we in the 21st century should be creative enough to figure out how to make our technology let all of us work less while living better, instead of creating a technological unemployment dystopia.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Yeah, I don’t pretend to have a solution either-but like I said, it seems like we in the 21st century should be creative enough to figure out how to make our technology let all of us work less while living better, instead of creating a technological unemployment dystopia.

Minus the guy getting the girl and all the gag-worthy 80s nostalgia, Ready Player One is definitely how it’s gonna be, economically.

 

[TWP]

Still waiting for a rational argument about why it’s morally superior to employ one American than three Mexicans... And if your answer is “‘cause ‘Murica,” then nothing could be more hillbilly Republican than that.

You’re doing it because it costs you less. Don’t hide behind an ethical curtain of BS. It costs jobs here and drives down wages here as a result.

On the flip side of the coin I don’t blame you too much, at this point you probably have to outsource certain types of work to be competitive because it’s been going on so long.

But selling this whole “3 humans got jobs instead of 1 I’m a river to my people” garbage is so cringe it hurts. You’re doing it for yourself. You’re part of the problem to fatten your own wallet. You can at least own up to it.

 

[SteveC]

You’re doing it because it costs you less. Don’t hide behind an ethical curtain of BS. It costs jobs here and drives down wages here as a result.

On the flip side of the coin I don’t blame you too much, at this point you probably have to outsource certain types of work to be competitive because it’s been going on so long.

But selling this whole “3 humans got jobs instead of 1 I’m a river to my people” garbage is so cringe it hurts. You’re doing it for yourself. You’re part of the problem to fatten your own wallet. You can at least own up to it.

I’ll stand with Todd on this one. You blatantly misrepresent his motivations, and I award you no points.

 

[TWP]

I’ll stand with Todd on this one. You blatantly misrepresent his motivations, and I award you no points.

ok

 

[roundout]

You’re doing it because it costs you less. Don’t hide behind an ethical curtain of BS. It costs jobs here and drives down wages here as a result.

On the flip side of the coin I don’t blame you too much, at this point you probably have to outsource certain types of work to be competitive because it’s been going on so long.

But selling this whole “3 humans got jobs instead of 1 I’m a river to my people” garbage is so cringe it hurts. You’re doing it for yourself. You’re part of the problem to fatten your own wallet. You can at least own up to it.

To be objective, you could flip this argument on its head. If a task requires 3 person-units of work, and the cost of 3 Mexicans is the same as the cost of 1 gringo, then Todd is actually helping hardworking Americans by keeping their rent lower than it would be if he had to pay triple the cost for whatever task is being performed.

Nothing exists in a vacuum.

 

[Hiboglossi]

Your ideas of “third world labor” sound suspiciously like “s—-hole countries” comments made by a certain orange racist.

Of course, that racist's clothing line is manufactured in China.

To be objective, you could flip this argument on its head. If a task requires 3 person-units of work, and the cost of 3 Mexicans is the same as the cost of 1 gringo, then Todd is actually helping hardworking Americans by keeping their rent lower than it would be if he had to pay triple the cost for whatever task is being performed.

Nothing exists in a vacuum.

I say he's helping reduce rent for hardworking Americans by outsourcing a good-paying job. Fewer high-paying jobs here lowers real estate prices in the U.S.A. and helps relieve upward pressure on rents.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

America can’t compete with 3rd world country wages and work rules. Theres a reason why American jobs and work has been outsourced, and why our middle class has been screwed.

 

[JordanD]

We’re really spinning this into “wage stagnation/depression is a good thing” now?

Ok. Somebody can want there to be good jobs in America without being a “hillbilly Republican.” Implying the only reason someone would want that is because they think less of people overseas is beyond ridiculous.

 

[BigZ]

We’re really spinning this into “wage stagnation/depression is a good thing” now?

Ok. Somebody can want there to be good jobs in America without being a “hillbilly Republican.” Implying the only reason someone would want that is because they think less of people overseas is beyond ridiculous.

What is the easier way to feel good about yourself?

A. Conduct thorough spring cleaning in your house
B. Send a friend a present by ordering one on Amazon

That's sort of a cryptic answer to what's being discussed here

 

[Hiboglossi]

We’re really spinning this into “wage stagnation/depression is a good thing” now?

It may seem bad, but in the long run it will reduce consumer demand, so Todd will get his comeuppance when he can't command as high rents because Americans no longer earn as much money; and his properties will be worth less than they would be with more good-paying jobs around if he sells them.

Only hillbilly Republicans support decent American jobs, which is why Trump has had his clothing line manufactured in China and hired illegal immigrants at his properties; and Republicans demonized Nancy Pelosi for owning a Wisconsin-built freezer. It's also why Republicans oppose unions and minimum wage increases while Democrats support them.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Nancy Pelosi for owning a Wisconsin-built freezer. .

Man, this ice cream story has so many levels.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the freezers full of ice cream really is a rallying cry