Why freight over regionals???

wheelsup said:
I took it to mean - "is this a PFT type program, or is it considered paying for hours a la timebuilding".



Dugie8 - what you posted and the article you posted don't conincide. According to Airnet, you can log the time you are not manipulating the controls as well, but simply as TT. Did you read the article you posted?

I did, because I've posted it several times on here myself.
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Uh, total time, but not PIC, SIC, or dual received, do you log TT when you fly on an airliner? Airnet's program is legit, if you log PIC when manipulating, or SIC when certain conditions are met, but TT and no PIC,SIC or Dual Received, now thats funny.
 
Dugie8 said:
Uh, total time, but not PIC, SIC, or dual received, do you log TT when you fly on an airliner? Airnet's program is legit, if you log PIC when manipulating, or SIC when certain conditions are met, but TT and no PIC,SIC or Dual Received, now thats funny.
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Hey, I'm just pointing out what they say they are allowed to do in the article you posted as gospel. If the FAA has signed off on it, why not?

EDIT: I agree, sounds shady to me, but who am I do disagree with the FAA? If Airnet has this in writing that its legit, I'm guessing it's ok to do. Any Airnet SIC's wanna chime in about how they log this stuff? Is Airnet still doing the PIC/TT thing?
 
wheelsup said:
Hey, I'm just pointing out what they say they are allowed to do in the article you posted as gospel. If the FAA has signed off on it, why not?

EDIT: I agree, sounds shady to me, but who am I do disagree with the FAA? If Airnet has this in writing that its legit, I'm guessing it's ok to do. Any Airnet SIC's wanna chime in about how they log this stuff? Is Airnet still doing the PIC/TT thing?
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Lets back up one step here. Airnets "posting" is not regulatory by any means. The FAA has not stated you can log TT without PIC, SIC or Dual received...

Mr. Jeff Karch
P.O. Box 5791
Lynnwood, WA 98046-5791

Dear Mr. Karch:

This is in response to your letter dated August 26, 1996, to the Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), concerning the logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) time. Additionally, your letter raises questions regarding the qualifications of pilots designated as second in command (SIC) by part 135 (14 CFR part 135) operators.

In your letter you present the following scenario: A pilot, wishing to advance his or her career, pays a part 135 operator to fly in the right pilot seat during part 135 operations. The part 135 operator designates this pilot as second in command (SIC) and allows him or her to manipulate the controls. The aircraft being flown during these operations is not required by type certification to have more than one pilot and the part 135 operation being conducted does not require more than one pilot. You ask whether the above pilot can log PIC time during those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls and whether a pilot may be considered the SIC for the part 135 operation if he or she is paying the part 135 operator to conduct the flight. The answers to these questions are discussed below.

The logging of flight time is governed by section 61.51 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR part 61.51). That section requires the logging of aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, flight review, or the recent flight experience requirements of 14 CFR part 61. The FAA does not require the logging of other flight time, but it is encouraged.

Logging of SIC flight time is governed by section 61.51(f), which provides, in pertinent part, that a person may log SIC time only for that flight time during which that person acts as SIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required by the aircraft’s type certificate or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

If a pilot designated as SIC is not required by either the aircraft type certificate or the regulations under which the operation is being conducted (e.g. 14 CFR part 135.103), as is the case in the scenario above, then the pilot designated as SIC may not log flight time as SIC. Although the flight time cannot be logged as SIC time, the pilot designated as SIC may be able to log part or all of the flight time as PIC in accordance with section 61.51(e).

Section 61.51(e) provides, in pertinent part, that a private or commercial pilot may log PIC time only for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or is acting as the PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

Accordingly, a pilot designated as SIC may log as PIC time all of the flight time during which he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which that individual is rated. Although the pilot designated as SIC in the scenario you provided in your letter may be properly logging flight time pursuant to section 61.51(e), the more important issue raised in your letter concerns whether or not this individual is properly qualified to be designated as SIC and to manipulate the controls of the aircraft.

Section 135.95 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR part 135.95) provides, in pertinent part, that no certificate holder may use the services of any person as an airman unless the person performing those services holds an appropriate and current airman certificate and is qualified, under this chapter, for the operation for which the person is to be used. (Emphasis added)

Section 135.115 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR 135.115) governs who may manipulate the controls of an aircraft being operated under part 135. This section states, in pertinent part, that no person may manipulate the flight controls of an aircraft during a flight conducted under part 135 unless that person is a pilot employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the aircraft. (Emphasis added)

As a result, a part 135 operator may only designate a pilot as SIC and allow that individual to manipulate the controls of the aircraft if that pilot is "qualified" in the aircraft and "employed" by the certificate holder. In order to be "qualified" in the aircraft for the operation for which the person is to be used, a pilot designated as SIC must meet all applicable regulatory requirements including the eligibility requirements under section 135.245 (14 CRF part 135.245) and the initial and recurrent training and testing requirements under section 135.293 (14 CFR part 135.293).

Section 135.245 provides, in part, that a certificate holder may not use any person, nor may any person serve, as SIC of an aircraft unless that person holds at least a commercial pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and an instrument rating.

Section 135.293 provides, in part, that a certificate holder may not use any person, nor may any person serve as a pilot, unless that pilot has passed a written or oral test on the listed subjects in this section as well as pass a competency flight check.

Therefore, a part 135 operator may only designate a pilot as SIC if that pilot is properly "qualified" in accordance with the regulations including sections 135.95 and 135.115 (he or she holds the appropriate certificate and ratings pursuant to section 135.245 and that pilot has received the initial and recurrent training and testing requirements in accordance with section 135.293).

In addition to being properly "qualified," a pilot may only manipulate the controls of an aircraft under section 135.115 if that individual is also "employed" by the part 135 operator. A pilot is considered to be "employed" by a certificate holder under part 135 if the pilot’s services are being "used" by the certificate holder. This is the dictionary definition of the word "employed"; there does not have to be a direct employer to employee compensatory relationship. While there does not have to be a direct employer to employee compensatory relationship, there does have to be an oversight relationship of the individual by the certificate holder for that individual to be considered properly "employed" (used) by the certificate holder.

As part of this oversight relationship, the part 135 operator is required, pursuant to 14 CFR part 135.63(a)(4), to keep certain records of each pilot the certificate holder uses in flight operations (e.g. the pilot’s full name, the pilot’s certificates and ratings, the pilot’s aeronautical experience, the pilot’s duties and assignments, the date and result of each initial and recurrent competency tests and proficiency and route checks, the pilot’s flight time,…). In addition, the part 135 operator is required under 14 CFR parts 135.251 and 135.255 to provide, directly or by contract, drug and alcohol testing for each individual it "uses" in safety-sensitive positions. Flight crewmember positions, of which pilots fall under, are considered to be safety-sensitive positions as defined under part 121, appendices I and J, (14 CFR part 121, appendices I and J), which require drug and alcohol testing.

In summary, based on your scenario, a pilot, wishing to advance his or her career, may pay a part 135 operator to fly in the right pilot seat during part 135 operations provided he or she is qualified, under part 135, for the operation for which the person is to be used. In addition, this pilot may manipulate the controls of the aircraft during part 135 operations provided he or she is employed by the certificate holder. This pilot may be designated as SIC even though the aircraft being flown does not require more than one pilot and the regulations under which the flight is being conducted do not require more than one pilot. Finally, this pilot may log PIC time for those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, but may not log any portion of the flight as SIC time.

We hope that this satisfactorily answers your questions. This opinion has been coordinated with Flight Standards.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division
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Dugie8 said:
Lets back up one step here. Airnets "posting" is not regulatory by any means. The FAA has not stated you can log TT without PIC, SIC or Dual received...
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What, exactly, was the point of pasting that article here then? It sounded to me like you were referring to it as part of your argument. It would have been better to post the offical FAA LOI.
 
wheelsup said:
What, exactly, was the point of pasting that article here then? It sounded to me like you were referring to it as part of your argument. It would have been better to post the offical FAA LOI.
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Because the letter is from Airnet, clearing stating you cannot log SIC (unless certain conditions are met), the FAA letter was not entirely on point as it deals with PFT and sitting right seat in a 135 operation, but it did address logging PIC vs SIC, note the letter says nothing about op specs either.

Now, maybe Airnet allows for logging of just TT to meet the FARs for 1200 TT for 135 PIC quals, if so, I don't think there is anything wrong with that, I don't know of a FAR that actually dicatates that TT must be either PIC, SIC or Dual received/given. It does seem a little suspect though, the FAA letter talks about logging all or part of the flight as PIC for the time the pilot manipulated the controls, yet it makes no mention of logging just TT for flight time not manipulating the controls. However, the REGS are more of a permissive language, so anything not clearly prohibited, is usually ok. Huge difference between ok and being accepted as "valid" time for any other job. Not saying the time isn't valid, per se, just that if someone is not going to make a career out of Airnet, applying to SWA or JBLU, you may want to think about how you log your flight time. This scenario is especially important since the TT you may log at Airnet (without PIC/SIC) is going towards your 1200, which must be logged since it is required by the FARs for PIC in 135.

Kind of a catch .22 that is probably best left untested.
 
John Herreshoff said:
I think what Kelvin is asking is whether it's like Airnet's SIC Program where THEY pay YOU
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Exactly! I got all of my certificates and ratings up to MEI. I ain't paying anything else. I asked because it sounded a little suspicious to me.

Might I add that I'm only 285hrs from 135mins.
 
Give back my threaddddddd. I'm very interested in flying freight, as I perfer the back side of the clock, and it appears to be beneficial as far as creating some hardcore flying skills...but that aside.....I'm most interested in where I will be after that.(my resume, and next job potential) Thanks again all, and keep em' coming.
 
Adam2006 said:
Give back my threaddddddd. I'm very interested in flying freight, as I perfer the back side of the clock, and it appears to be beneficial as far as creating some hardcore flying skills...but that aside.....I'm most interested in where I will be after that.(my resume, and next job potential) Thanks again all, and keep em' coming.
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Sorry about that Adam :sitaware:

It is a toss up. If you can live in base for a regional I would suggest that route. You are going to develop the same skills and decision making as you will flying freight. However, as most have mentioned, there are a ton of people out there with part 121 jet/turboprop SIC time. If you goal is something like FedEx, UPS, (I don't mention UAL, Delta, etc because it is going to be a very long time before they even think of hiring, and even then there are going to be so many CRJ/ERJ/Dash8 captains out there, that those slots will fill quickly, IMHO) then go the Airnet, Ameriflight, etc route. You will get to that turbine PIC time fairly quick. The only problem is, as I see it, most of the bases for these types of companies seem to be in more expensive areas, relative to the pay you will be making. Where with regionals, at least you have the option of commuting from a more affordable area.

I would think the biggest things for you to consider would be QOL, and upgrade time. Pay is pretty much going to be even between regional FO and cargo piston Captain.

Hope this helps, sorry for the hijack(s)
 
Here is my experience on the freight side. I stuck with instructing until I had 1800 TT and 1000 ME. From there I went to Ameristar. Hauling freight in Falcons and Lears. After 13 months I was offered upgrade to captain with 2 type ratings. I turned down the upgrade, finish my contract and am hired at Flexjet. I start class on the Lear 60 next thursday. This is where I wanted to end up.

Flying freight has some benifits and some downfalls.

Most of the guys that come to Ameristar come from piston freight gigs. There are some of us that came from instructing. A few from the regionals and a few others from other jet freight operators. The mins are high to get in the door because they are hiring folks that should upgrade in 18 months. They can't cut you loose as PIC in a Lear 24 with 2000TT. I need to say that upgrade is not for sure. It is based on ability as well as experience and senority. There are guys that have been in the right seat here for 4 years and others that were high time that upgrade in 6 months. You have to be able to walk the walk.

From Ameristar where do you go? That is the question I guess. Nobody wants to stay at an on demand freight job for any longer than they have to. In the past 18 months guys and gals have gone to;

Polar
Southwest
Gemini
Omni
Jet Blue
Continental
Flexjet
Flight Options
Citation Shares
Net Jets
and various others

That is not to bad considering the market.

No one I know would consider going to a regional from here. It would be a considered a step down and a cut in pay.

Freight is not for everyone though. The schedule sucks. We spend a lot of time on call and we fly at all hours. You generally know what days you are on and which you are off. Other than that it is sit around and wait for the pager. (like right now) There are very few nice overnights unless you count Detroit, Laredo or Gary, IN. but hey it pays the bills.

Oh yea. Shorts and tennis shoes are the uniform of choice. Got to love that.
 
When I eventually get my commercial and cfi multis (with instrument of course) plus multi-time, I would LUV to try freightdoggin'. Then again, I would have loved the experience of bringing a tomcat back to a carrier at night;) ! I wonder though, if going from instructing to a place like airnet is still considered a sideways move, considering the fact that multi-engine time is so hard to come by in some places (like here in the northeast).
 
Going from CFI'ing to flying 135 is not a sideways move, according to anybody and everybody I've ever talked to.
 
hank1292 said:
Here is my experience on the freight side. I stuck with instructing until I had 1800 TT and 1000 ME. From there I went to Ameristar. Hauling freight in Falcons and Lears. After 13 months I was offered upgrade to captain with 2 type ratings. I turned down the upgrade, finish my contract and am hired at Flexjet. I start class on the Lear 60 next thursday. This is where I wanted to end up.

Flying freight has some benifits and some downfalls.

Most of the guys that come to Ameristar come from piston freight gigs. There are some of us that came from instructing. A few from the regionals and a few others from other jet freight operators. The mins are high to get in the door because they are hiring folks that should upgrade in 18 months. They can't cut you loose as PIC in a Lear 24 with 2000TT. I need to say that upgrade is not for sure. It is based on ability as well as experience and senority. There are guys that have been in the right seat here for 4 years and others that were high time that upgrade in 6 months. You have to be able to walk the walk.

From Ameristar where do you go? That is the question I guess. Nobody wants to stay at an on demand freight job for any longer than they have to. In the past 18 months guys and gals have gone to;

Polar
Southwest
Gemini
Omni
Jet Blue
Continental
Flexjet
Flight Options
Citation Shares
Net Jets
and various others

That is not to bad considering the market.

No one I know would consider going to a regional from here. It would be a considered a step down and a cut in pay.

Freight is not for everyone though. The schedule sucks. We spend a lot of time on call and we fly at all hours. You generally know what days you are on and which you are off. Other than that it is sit around and wait for the pager. (like right now) There are very few nice overnights unless you count Detroit, Laredo or Gary, IN. but hey it pays the bills.

Oh yea. Shorts and tennis shoes are the uniform of choice. Got to love that.
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That right there is worth at least 15K a year lower pay, for me!
 
You mean getting to a good company quick...and doing some real flying along they way isn't worth it? Or.......do you mean taking part in the decline of...ahh screw it.

woof.
 
txpilot said:
Where do I start...ahh never mind, I'll piss people off and write a book on it. We'll just say so I can look in the mirror. This is for me only, YMMV. And, no I will not be going to a regional after this...I will get out of flying first. We have had some people come here (Airnet) and then go to the mini majors but I've never understood that one.

Oh well, good luck.
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I knew I liked you for a reason. Good man.
 
txpilot said:
See this thread: http://www.jetcareers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26319 and Alchemy's post on it to see why not to go to a regional. I feel bad for all the regional guys/gals. It's sad to see this industry go where it's going.

CaptChris, the SIC's in the regionals fly regularly, but SIC time is just not as valuable as it once was considering how many mini majors are furloughing, losing people to attrition, etc. There are a ton of CRJ/ERJ SIC's looking to get out of where they are.

Just my observations, don't take personally. Any regional guys want to chime in with why go to regionals over freight??? Equal opportunity, and all.
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For every regional jet out there , someone is logging SIC and someone is logging PIC.
 
Honestly I would be wary of chasing an upgrade no matter where you go. Your path to the left seat of a turbine powered aircraft will probably have more to do with luck than planning.

I was hoping to upgrade at Expressjet within 3 years of being hired but it looks like that is not going to happen. In the meantime at least I can make about $40k/yr as a senior FO and have decent QOL, commuting from the city where I want to live and working the front side of the clock. My job right now in the regionals isn't the worst thing in the world, as long as I can avoid thinking about the future and the complete and utter lack of job security in this sector of aviation. The flying itself is still great, already in just doing it a year and a half I've seen some interesting things and some challenging situations. It's also nice not to have your integrity challenged every day at work because of questionable aircraft maintenance or dispatch practices. At least at my employer, every t is crossed and every i is dotted. Makes the job easy.

On the downside, the experience I'm getting right now is pretty worthless in the logbook. 1500 hours of RJ SIC time and counting.....looks like I'll be racking up at least another 1500 hours or so in that column before I change seats, be it due to an upgrade or a furlough.

There is absolutely no job security in the regionals right now, especially as a newhire. Something is going to budge within the next 5 years....massive consolidations w/ accompanying furloughs, 50 seat RJ's being parked, and with fuel approaching $100/barrel and so many airlines bleeding cash, the status quo will probably not be maintained. Hopefully better paying jobs will continue to open up at mainline/and or the LCC's so attrition can continue, but I'm not too optimistic about that either.


With all that said, if I do find myself on the recieiving end of a furlough notice, I will most likely pursue 135 freight rather than try another regional. At the time I was hired by Expressjet I was also trying to get a job at Airnet. I also have apps in at FlexJet and CitationShares. I have a good friend who flies caravans at night and he really enjoys that, I wouldn't mind doing that work either. I've enjoyed regional flying thus far but I have a feeling it's about to get a lot worse.

Honestly, if I were going to a regional right now, I'd probably look for a turboprop operator. The problem is, they all suck...at Gulfstream you pay for your job, at Colgan you have that annoying training contract which borders on PFT, Great Lakes pays poverty wages, Commutair isn't really hiring, and well....you get the point.

This career is not going to be easy unless you get extremely lucky or have some friends in high places. You will work hard only to be rewarded many times with paycuts and furloughs. That's the nature of this business, I think.
 
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