jose1337
Well-Known Member
Ditto here
Which Distace Course Is Better? AGS or Sheffield?
- Thread starter M20B_pilot
- Start date
F9DXER
Well-Known Member
Whoa - Stop the Presses - STOP THE PRESSES!!!!
"Woman says man is correct" - more information about this latest revelation at 11.
M20B_pilot
Well-Known Member
OK, so I have signed up with AGS for their online/distance course. Within an hour of emailing the application, I was sent my login info and confirmation email. I've already completed 5 hours or so of the online course. They use DigitalChalk (http://www.digitalchalk.com/) to present the majority of the units. From what I've seen so far, most units are presented as a mix of a powerpoint kind of presentation with the audio of someone narrating things. It's really what I would assume it would be like to be sitting in the classroom. Aside from the digitalchalk presentations, there are units which are really just links to AOPA presentations, FAA videos to be downloaded and viewed as well as actual powerpoint presentations. On top of that, they mail you a CD and binder dividers. You need to print all the PDF files off the CD and put them in a binder. From what I've read, the majority of that is gone over at the residency portion of the class. One thing I didn't like about that is that I had to print about 700 pages of info. It was very time consuming. I went to the university library where I work and printed it there at a pretty cheap price. I filled a 3.5" binder with from and back printed info. Looks like quite a bit of stuff. I also had to purchase the Aviation Weather Services book, Aviation Weather, the Dispatcher Oral Exam Prep book as well as the FAR FC and FAR/AIM. They basically tell you to read through those books on your own and they have presentations to supplement that info. Man, there is a TON of reading to do for this! I really don't know how everyone does this in the 5 week full-time course.
I have already learned SO much just from the 10 hours or so that I've spent on this so far. I'm sure glad I gave myself until June to do the residency portion of the course. Man, I am really starting to appreciate how difficult this job must be and how much info you need to have.
r311music
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the update/information. Keep us updated if possible every now and then and let us know how it goes.
jose1337
Well-Known Member
That's the reason I gave myself a full month of looking at the Gleim prep book, oral exam guide, and all the far's/doc's those books cited which I found pdf versions of on the Internet. Made class much less stressful, plus I got to actually enjoy the Olympics...
FlightController
Well-Known Member
You are able to reference specific items, however things such as Alt. Mins, WX questions, the examiner frowned upon that... Hope this helps.
LawDXer
Well-Known Member
Don't tell the President from Sheffield that because according to him that is against FAA rules and he also states that any examiner allowing this method of testing is done at that point..When I took my oral, my examiner wanted be to have a reg book with me because he also wanted to have a discussion with me regarding regs and teach me a few things but If I am training a new dispatcher, I want them to know the 1-2-3 rule along with the fuel requirements but if they are unsure, they better look it up and and know where to find so that you do not risk your ticket because when you work the desk, you should work each flight as if the FAA is sitting behind you.
I checked 8081-10c which was written by the FAA and pages 6 and 7 state what shall be supplied by the applicant as determined by the examiner....also the bottom of page 7 states "Where appropriate, the applicant should be allowed to use printed reference material commonly available to a company dispatcher."...I do understand the meaning of appropriate and do not need a english lesson.
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
LawDXer said:
This was the case for me too... I was GRILLED on the regs and once my examiner was satisfied with my knowledge, he also wanted to teach me quite a bit. My oral was definitely a "teaching experience" and he used my books to achieve that.
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
BSUbronco said:
It is in the PTS, under "Examiner Responsibility", though it says "should" be allowed to, not "shall" be allowed to. So I think it's at the discretion of the examiner. If I'm interpreting that incorrectly, please let me know.
I do however think it's appropriate to look some things up because as a real world dispatcher, we are often referring to "all available resources". There is no way to memorize or know EVERYTHING.
jose1337
Well-Known Member
Same here, had to look up regs in my FAR/AIM book, and my examiner spent about 15 minutes teaching me how to read a Jeppesen chart since IFOD doesn't teach them, and showed me a current emergency procedures checklist...
BSUbronco
Active Member
The definition of "should" according to both dictionary.com and merriam-webster :
1. simple past tense of shall.
2.(used to express condition): Were he to arrive, I should be pleased.
3.must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency): You should not do that.
4.would (used to make a statement less direct or blunt): I should think you would apologize.
According to a friend of mine that works for the FAA, they are in the process of changing that part of the PTS in all exams that will say "shall".
1. simple past tense of shall.
2.(used to express condition): Were he to arrive, I should be pleased.
3.must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency): You should not do that.
4.would (used to make a statement less direct or blunt): I should think you would apologize.
According to a friend of mine that works for the FAA, they are in the process of changing that part of the PTS in all exams that will say "shall".
emorris
Well-Known Member
Refer to 8900.1 volume 1, chapter 1, section 1 for the FAA definitions or descriptions of some of the above terms. And regarding changes to the PTS, if they are in fact changing any 'should' terms to 'shall', the term 'discretion' will not be changed. Any examiner who allows an applicant to look up a domestic fuel requirement or a "1-2-3" rule or other simple rote information often applied during a Part 65 AD course, is using no discretion. Now let me clarify once again- we do not require people to memorize everything. That is impossible and foolish. As an example, knowing that these rules are found within 121 subpart U is something we ask; however, ONLY knowing references as some form of crutch is lame. Feel free to argue, but please follow through for the sake of consistency and petition the FAA to provide open book ADX knowledge exams. You will also be contradicting test administration instructions from my local FAA inspector who informed me and a group of over a dozen examiners of the same information during recurrent training in early 2012 in Orlando, Florida. It will be amusing to now watch someone who has never given an FAA practical exam attempt to discredit me (a DADE) for trying to add to this discussion. Or we will witness the new forum signer-upper claim to be a DADE and contradict common sense, anonymously of course. Should take anywhere from 10 minutes to 48 hours.
Eric M. - Sheffield School
LawDXer
Well-Known Member
Maybe that is how you DADE supervisor wants you guys to do it but honestly, I would rather have someone look it up and be 110% sure rather than memorize it and get it wrong. I understanding knowing the 1-2-3 rule, which is simple but you have to admit, the wording of someone of the regulations can be a little crazy. When I train, I want my people to know where to find them if they are not sure, the more you look something up, it will become second nature.
I also don't see how you bringing up "us" to petition the FAA to allowing the ADX to be an open book exam be relevant to the practical exam, which is what all of us are talking about.
You really take things way out of context and get offended way too easy! There are plenty of people who have experience who can give their take on this. Personally, In my exam I was able to reference things and my examiner wanted to know that I knew where to look up things in the regulation book.
I am guessing you have never worked the dispatch desk, because if you did, you would know what manuals are in a dispatch office and how it works.
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
LawDXer said:
I agree with LawDXer... Nobody here is talking about not knowing the simple 1-2-3 rule or when we need a destination alternate. But it's also just as important to know WHERE to look as it is to know the regs by memory. I can tell you that for my oral, I had those regs memorized to a Tee! However, dispatching live aircraft and the responsibility that goes along with that, you can bet your butt I double check myself by looking up certain regs - for the assurance that I haven't mixed something up and for the safety of that flight... I reference manuals, binders, and the web every single shift and that is real world dispatching.
I think this should be taught at Dx schools. We were told at school this would be the case but I think it should be implemented into the curriculum a bit more so we have a more "realistic" idea of how we will do our jobs. Being forced to memorize everything and not be allowed to reference materials is not realistic IMO. There's too many unique situations that arise and referencing all available resources is part if the actual job.
I also agree that if someone can't recite what the 1-2-3 rule is, they probably are no where near ready for their oral. But again, Mr. Morris, nobody is talking about that "extreme" here. I think everyone knows that what's being discussed is the practical application as well as the teaching experience received from an examiner during an oral by being able to reference "all available resources". Nobody looks at it as an opportunity to cheat, take advantage or not study because this is an option.
What prospective students need to take from this is that when you get to working as a dispatcher, you not only need to know your stuff but you will also look stuff up ALL THE TIME because that's real world dispatching. And as far as your oral is concerned, you need to know those regs as though there is no FAR/AIM to reference, but if you're lucky you'll get an examiner that not only tests your knowledge and understanding of those regs but also uses the opportunity to teach you some things you don't know, as was the case for me. I'm lucky I had such an examiner.
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
womanpilot73 said:
CORRECTION: I had the 1-2-3 rule on the brain - I meant to say "takeoff alternate", not destination alternate. Guess I should proof read my posts
MT
Well-Known Member
Let me point to an extreme at a previous airline.
We had a dispatcher that wrote everything there is to know about dispatching and company regulations on index cards. One nugget of information per card.
Every day, every flight, this dispatcher would cycle through those cards for the information to do their job. While flight following, every situation that would come up, down it went to the cards. Flights began to back up, releases were becoming late. The workload was passed on to other dispatchers.
During a annual competency check, they were given 4 routine flight following tasks that should take a competent dispatcher no more than 10 minutes total to complete. Aircraft Mx Issue requiring diversion, holding scenario, airborne reroute, and pre-departure reroute. This dispatcher took nearly an hour to complete the tasks, each time referring to the index cards and becoming more and more flustered. Needless to say, it was a failure.
This is why I'm not buying the whole notion of look up everything. While Mr. Morris may be a touch extreme in his methods, we need to have Dispatching 101 so ingrained in our heads that we can rely on memory alone to be 100% correct 100% of the time. For things that are so vital to our job function and literally people's lives, we don't have time to go looking them up each time. These are the concepts and regulations taught at Sheffield. Things that are not of such a vital nature, such as can we carry a dog today, or what the penalties associated with this MEL, absolutely know where to look them up. In fact I would be upset if you tried to recall an MEL's penalties by memory!
We had a dispatcher that wrote everything there is to know about dispatching and company regulations on index cards. One nugget of information per card.
Every day, every flight, this dispatcher would cycle through those cards for the information to do their job. While flight following, every situation that would come up, down it went to the cards. Flights began to back up, releases were becoming late. The workload was passed on to other dispatchers.
During a annual competency check, they were given 4 routine flight following tasks that should take a competent dispatcher no more than 10 minutes total to complete. Aircraft Mx Issue requiring diversion, holding scenario, airborne reroute, and pre-departure reroute. This dispatcher took nearly an hour to complete the tasks, each time referring to the index cards and becoming more and more flustered. Needless to say, it was a failure.
This is why I'm not buying the whole notion of look up everything. While Mr. Morris may be a touch extreme in his methods, we need to have Dispatching 101 so ingrained in our heads that we can rely on memory alone to be 100% correct 100% of the time. For things that are so vital to our job function and literally people's lives, we don't have time to go looking them up each time. These are the concepts and regulations taught at Sheffield. Things that are not of such a vital nature, such as can we carry a dog today, or what the penalties associated with this MEL, absolutely know where to look them up. In fact I would be upset if you tried to recall an MEL's penalties by memory!
FlightController
Well-Known Member
As my DADE from the CVG office said to me before my exams..."Better safe than sorry. If you can look something up and reference it straight from the book and know where to look, you will do fine in this career. It's not about memorization, but knowing where to look for the answer... Also, when in doubt, ask - that is what your Senior Dispatchers and Supervisors are for."
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
MT said:
That IS an extreme situation... I can't imagine doing my job that way or feeling like I need I do my job that way. Yikes! That's an example of someone who probably shouldn't have passed their O&P.
But I also feel that there needs to be a balance. I think to be a competent dispatcher - especially a new dispatcher like myself - we should error on the side of caution when unsure and not let our egos get in the way of safety. Sure, there are times I will refer to our op specs or other resources for something that I definitely know, but for whatever reason am questioning myself that day. There's so much to learn just out of school that often times our brain function has reached full capacity on a given day and for things that I would normally know matter-of-factly, I end up having a brain fart. So I'm glad I know where to look these things up - which was a point my school made well. They wanted us to know where to find the information needed for a given situation if necessary.
I still think that it shouldn't be viewed as a negative if an examiner allows a student to refer to his/her materials during an oral exam. Again, there has to be knowledge and understanding of the material (no one should really need to look it up if they are well prepared) and an examiner will know whether or not the student should pass, but I don't see anything wrong with referencing our books - especially for the teaching experience some examiners prefer giving. I felt lucky because my examiner had me turn to regs we never touched on in school and taught me some valuable stuff.
LawDXer
Well-Known Member
I guess he is no longer a DADE now, correct?
I am only saying this because according to emorris in this thread he is using no discretion and in another thread, he is "pretty much done".....
I would like to get a DADE outside the state of Florida to give us their take on the PTS for dispatchers......
