Wherever JetBlue goes, goodies follow

[IrishSheepdog]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

[ QUOTE ]
Smart, profitable companies that are fair with their employees have no need for unions. The JBLU CEO is a smart guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure? What happens when a new CEO steps in? Or there is a major management shift?

 

[JollyRodger]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Smart, profitable companies that are fair with their employees have no need for unions. The JBLU CEO is a smart guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure? What happens when a new CEO steps in? Or there is a major management shift?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what if? Well if "what if" happens then it's time to reconsider the union issue. In this case JBLU ownership is highly concentrated in the management. A major shift in the near-term is not in the cards.

 

[fly22]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

Dude are you only in it for the short term? Some people don't have that luxury.

 

[pilot602]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Smart, profitable companies that are fair with their employees have no need for unions. The JBLU CEO is a smart guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure? What happens when a new CEO steps in? Or there is a major management shift?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding Ding Ding - we have a winner. Chances are very good that a large, large number of emplyees (pilots, rampers, agents etc.) will be at the company long before any given CEO arrives and long after that CEO leaves. Which means those employees will see a different management every X years.

The only thing protecting them is either the good nature of each CEO or a union.

And, if anyone believes a CEO is going to look out for his or her employees then that person is beyond naive.

 

[IrishSheepdog]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, what if? Well if "what if" happens then it's time to reconsider the union issue. In this case JBLU ownership is highly concentrated in the management. A major shift in the near-term is not in the cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not so simple. When a new CEO takes over, or things start to go downhill, you can't simply vote a union on the property overnight. It is a process that takes time. Then, when the union is on property, it takes time to develop a contract to work under. What happens in the meantime without protections?

JBLU is a good company, and is successful now. Will they be successful in the future? We'll have to wait and see. There are too many variables in this industry to say what will be happening in 5 years. ATA is currently profitable, however they have been forced to renegotiate aircraft leases to save the company from bankrupcy. Let us not forget JBLU has not yet begun to pay it's aircraft leases, which permits profitability. Not to mention the EMB-190 order.

The 5-year contract issue, and the non-union issue (we are non-union at my company as well, however our management has not said they will shut down the company should we vote one in), don't seem very pilot friendly.

 

[JollyRodger]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

Let me rephrase my last post for the retarded. JBLU is unique in that it's management owns a large precentage of the company. There will be no change in management for a long time. The company may be sold, but in that case a union would be useless anyway.

If JBLU had unions they'd be demanding concessions because of the $$ rolling in. Then a downturn in business and JBLU is right where all the other unionized employee run airlines are; in chp 11 or damn near it.

You guys want to perform heart surgery on the patient before he even gets sick. Ding Ding yourself. I'm just telling you to face facts. No one can argue the facts of my original post, they just resort to pulling a single phrase out of context rather than address the issue (Flychig I don't include you in this heap of steaming dung).

 

[pilot602]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

The other airlines are in Chp 11 or near it due to inept management decisions. Unions may or may not have contributed but at the end of the day the buck stops with the guys in charge - management.

Care to change your argument, again? Come on let's see how many times you can change your stance in one thread! It'll be FUN!


Idiot.

 

[FL270]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

I think that some of the union members on the board here (no offense to guys like Doug and Matt, I have a huge amount of respect for you guys, as I think - hope - you know) have fallen victim to the notion that all CEOs are inherently awful people who will foxtrot-uniform-charlie-kilo over their employees at the first opportunity. Yes, there are a few folks like that, but most CEOs are good people who want the company to make a profit and make the shareholders happy. Most of those folks recognize that keeping employees happy and fairly compensated is integral to business success. JetBlue is doing that without a union. Should management change in the future, there's no reason to assume that they'll be crummy management ... and if they are, then the balance sheet will reflect that. If the employees want a union, they can get one. If they don't want to work there, they can go elsewhere.

Corporate America is not inherently evil because of a few bad apples. To say so is akin to saying all pilots are fall-down drunks because one Cactus crew hit the sauce too hard in MIA.

FL270

 

[kellwolf]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

[ QUOTE ]
If JBLU had unions they'd be demanding concessions because of the $$ rolling in. Then a downturn in business and JBLU is right where all the other unionized employee run airlines are; in chp 11 or damn near it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, not to nit-pick, but Southwest is 100% union......

 

[JollyRodger]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

There is no point because no matter what is discussed it always digresses to Rep vs. Dem. or Big Business vs. unions or whatever. You fags have an agenda it's obvious. Good gawd, no one can even start up a new airline with new ideas and a new vision, without you guys trying to piss all over it because you feel threatened. Your observations are so transparent, you don't have any original thoughts, and nothing you say is interesting.

Go on hating management and blaming everything on some CEO somewhere because it's so easy. I'm sure you're gonna be a big success.

 

[FL270]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

Sorry, JR, that post was out of line. I disagree with some of these folks from time to time, but they're good people and I respect them. I hope my tone and content always reflects that. Yours, sir, does not, and I think that respectful discourse is the least we can ask of everyone on this board, opinions aside. I think you'll usually find that to be true, even in the Squawk Box.

FL270

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

Goodness, Jolly....today your 12th birthday??

 

[kellwolf]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

Woah..... that was a major generalization.

I don't think anyone said they 'hated' JetBlue (or any other airline). In fact, there were several comments on the contrary. I'm quite happy where I work, management actually runs the company well, and (shocker) we're union. Being union has NOTHING to do with how the company is run, it has to do with management/employee relations. Company decisions are 100% management, maybe with some input from employees.

I don't hate JetBlue, the statement was made that they are the current media darlings, and I have to agree. Southwest is another media darling, but the difference b/w the two is that SWA has been around for over 30 years. They come through the fire and are doing fine. JetBlue is still a relatively young company, and the jury is still out on whether their business plan will work in the long run. It's been golden in the short run, but what happens when they have to start paying for the leases on the A320s, training pilots/FAs/A&Ps on the 190s, and dealing with what is essentially a two-tiered pilot pay scale? I'm interested to see how they will handle it.

 

[PurduePilot]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

Might I remind everyone that Neeleman has pledged to stay with JetBlue until he kicks the bucket.

Also, everyone at the management level has their salaries fixed. Neeleman's salary is $200,000/year. Just to put that in perspective.. he has somewhere like 7 kids to support and a wife.

Every time the company pulls a profit, the employees will see that reflected in their paycheck. Every quarter, all of the employees get a bonus. I think last year it amounted to 25% of their total yearly pay!

JetBlue (B6) has promised to return to ATL when they get their EMB190s online. They want to make ATL a spot where they can launch short hops from, from what I've heard.

 

[Kristie]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

Hey P602 - don't get so uptight man....

I have to admit, this is a really excellent thread and i've had fun (ie: learned a lot) reading it. i'm glad to see everyone being so civilized lately! - but i have one question for you...

[ QUOTE ]
If JBLU had unions they'd be demanding concessions because of the $$ rolling in. Then a downturn in business and JBLU is right where all the other unionized employee run airlines are; in chp 11 or damn near it.

[/ QUOTE ] why would JBLU be demanding concessions when they're making a profit? and what does unionization have to do with that?? the unions don't charge the airline companies, they charge the employees.

Could you imagine being asked for concessions when there's a profit coming in? of course, with a union, it'd be a lot easier to say "he$$ no". Without a union, there is no choice and no one to back you up.

if JBLU's making a profit and the pilots are making what they're worth - then there shouldn't be anything wrong with having a union in town. Unions are good for making sure everything is copasetic on the employee side on a daily basis as well as for contract negotiations when it comes up. From what i've seen, they're especially worthwhile at the larger mainline companies (AA, DL etc) and maybe that's just because of the amount of employees within the company since it's probably quite difficult for human resources to take all the constant jibber jabber from their employees - heck, i wish i had one at my office, i would probably get better treatment! It may just be that right now, JBLU is doing good without a union because they're still a somewhat small airline company and when/if they do start really expanding, they may in fact need a union...

I have to admit this is interesting and i also have to admit that i may be getting offtrack since i know so little about the union side of business - but learning is a good thing right?!

edit: [ QUOTE ]
You fags have an agenda it's obvious

[/ QUOTE ] whoops, I missed this...JR - that's uncalled for and I thought this thread was quite civil until you gave that up and here i am asking Pilot602 to take a chill - you've had your first warning.... dang, I hate giving those!

 

[montanapilot]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

I also heard somewhere that you dont have to resign your seniority number if you go to JB. Are there alot of furloughed AMR, DAL etc. pilots there? That would be a good deal in my opinion if you were furloughed.

I do agree JB and SWA are media darlings. I mean its just not "cool" to profile Delta or AMR cause they are perceived as old and boring (nothing wrong with that) however these guys have been around for
many decades. Only time will tell.


anybody wanna answer my first post? what do their pilots top out at? also are they on a seniority system for their pay scale?


Rodger WTF? with the insults and crap. I ve seen you in political discussions and you didnt resort to name calling. Surely this isnt as heated as the perpetual liberal vs conservative war.

 

[Kingairer]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

Having a Union is something that is defintly needed in this biz when the company gets to a certain size. If you dont realize that now, trust me, you will when you get on with the airlines.

 

[pilot602]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

Duly noted.

 

[tonyw]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

[ QUOTE ]
If JBLU had unions they'd be demanding concessions because of the $$ rolling in. Then a downturn in business and JBLU is right where all the other unionized employee run airlines are; in chp 11 or damn near it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Southwest is the most unionized airline out there.

Delta's probably one of the least unionized ones, since they've got non-union flight attendants.

Want to rephrase that statement?

 

[tonyw]

Re: SOLID GOLD!!!

[ QUOTE ]
but most CEOs are good people who want the company to make a profit and make the shareholders happy. Most of those folks recognize that keeping employees happy and fairly compensated is integral to business success.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, given the history of mangement at many of the majors, I'm less inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Look at the little game that AA's management played, and the bonus that Leo Mullin gave himself at the same time he was telling folks like Doug to take a paycut.

I've been a manager before. I've had people reporting to me. I never asked them to do a single thing that I wouldn't do myself. For example, if they had to come in to complete a project over the weekend, I made sure I was there before they got there and left afterwards and that I helped them.

Now, all the execs at every company once upon a time had that front line supervisor experience that I did. I just wonder what happened to the ones who forget that you have to take care of your employees in order for the company succeed.

I wonder just how many studies will have to be done that shows that companies that take care of their employees provide better returns to their stockholders before some execs get it.

I really don't believe that they're evil people. I just wonder why they forget all the lessons they learned.