When is it appropriate to grease a landing?

I'm going to have to agree with pprag and say that is some of the conditions we deal with in AK you want it on the ground ASAP. On the majority of the runways we fly into with a 207 there is no such thing as a VASI and it is entirely up the pilot's judgment. On anything up here under 2,000' (and that's a lot of runways) you're number one priority is to get the mains down quick and get the airplane stopped, with no points awarded for finesse. Anything longer than that and you have a little wiggle room, but not much.

On the one 135 checkride I've done up here in the 207 the checkairman wanted to see me down and stopped in the first half of a 1,400 runway. The trick is be on airspeed, aim for the threshold (or maybe a little before in the terrain allows), minimal flare, and get on the brakes.

Now, not to pick on anyone but I will say that flying down here in the lower 48 tends to make me lazy. I haven't been into a runway shorter than 4,000 in a LONG time. I have to continually force myself to pick a spot and hit it every time because when I eventually get back up north that will be my world again.

gliderboy said:
Do any of you guys ever retract the flaps a few degrees to put the plane down when you're floating along in ground effect using up runway? I'm not talking about 10 feet above the ground or more, but one or two feet up when you want to put 'er down and get on the brakes.
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Standard procedure for me is as soon as the mains are down, retract the flaps as I want to have as much weight on the wheels as soon as I can. However, I will qualify that statement by saying my day job currently has me in a fixed gear single.

I have in the past anticipated touchdown by a little and just retracted the flaps on short fields in the moment before touchdown but it's not a technique I can really recommend. The Caravan had a tendency to plant really hard when you did that and that really did strange things when you've got larger tires on it. The 207 is a little more forgiving of the technique but I'll let pprag talk about that if he wants to.
 
TallFlyer said:
I'm going to have to agree with pprag and say that is some of the conditions we deal with in AK you want it on the ground ASAP. On the majority of the runways we fly into with a 207 there is no such thing as a VASI and it is entirely up the pilot's judgment. On anything up here under 2,000' (and that's a lot of runways) you're number one priority is to get the mains down quick and get the airplane stopped, with no points awarded for finesse. Anything longer than that and you have a little wiggle room, but not much.

On the one 135 checkride I've done up here in the 207 the checkairman wanted to see me down and stopped in the first half of a 1,400 runway. The trick is be on airspeed, aim for the threshold (or maybe a little before in the terrain allows), minimal flare, and get on the breaks.

Now, not to pick on anyone but I will say that flying down here in the lower 48 tends to make me lazy. I haven't been into a runway shorter than 4,000 in a LONG time. I have to continually force myself to pick a spot and hit it every time because when I eventually get back up north that will be my world again.



Standard procedure for me is as soon as the mains are down, retract the flaps as I want to have as much weight on the wheels as soon as I can. However, I will qualify that statement by saying my day job currently has me in a fixed gear single.

I have in the past anticipated touchdown by a little and just retracted the flaps on short fields in the moment before touchdown but it's not a technique I can really recommend. The Caravan had a tendency to plant really hard when you did that and that really did strange things when you've got larger tires on it. The 207 is a little more forgiving of the technique but I'll let pprag talk about that if he wants to.
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That used to be my technique in the sled. Now I wait to retract the flaps until taxi speed. Which means I absolutely have to hit my point to stop short.
 
When you're trying to show off for the hot chick you brought along in the right seat.












:sarcasm: (just in case ;))
 
SFCC/UND said:
I know a couple of FAA people that will fail you, if you touch anything while still on the runway.
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I guess it's a good thing all of my checkrides have been with DPEs then.

Like I said earlier, my current ride is a fixed gear single. Not a lot to go wrong or screw up honestly. This is probably not something you should be doing in a retract, twin, or in 135 or 121 ops unless specically laid in in FAA approved company SOPs.
 
SFCC/UND said:
I know a couple of FAA people that will fail you, if you touch anything while still on the runway.
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I think you'll continue to find that to be true with DPEs, company checkairmen, and captains. No need to be flipping any switches till you're off the runway.
 
Back to the video....

Can you say......Hot brakes!

On a separate note, this is the same airport that the C-130H from the USAF Reserve 440th Airlift Wing out of Milwaukee landed at and overran the runway in April 1997, killing 3 of 10 onboard.
 
Let me answer the OP question. It's always appropriate to grease a landing as long as it's on-speed, in the touchdown zone and on centerline.

Hot and high airports surrounded by mountains in countries with questionable ATC and air safety practices are not places to play. That's a no bull, make a mistake and die position. The guy in the original video was lucky.

Just a few notes:

I think this shows the difference in just being qualified in an airplane to the bare minimum standards (think about this....especially those of you taking an ex-pat FO job. ;)) and the system-safety approach with multiple levels of training including CRM found in the US - even at the "bare bones" mentality airlines that alot of us have flown at.

If you, practice hitting the fixed-distance markers in a narrow body every time, the runway length (as long as you are legal for performance) won't matter. I even had greasers on inside the touchdown zone, crossing the threshold at 50' in EYW. In the ERJ, if you cross the threshold at 50', do your 2.5* or so flare and touchdown without floating, you only need the buckets open and moderate braking to be at taxi speed WELL before the end. Not every landing there (or anywhere else mind you) was a greaser, but they do hit the touchdown zone.

A 207 certified under Part 23 engaged in 135 operations is not equal to a Part 25 airplane engaged in Part 121 or 125 operations.

And, surreal, you didn't get your head chopped off. You were adament about Vref, and nothing else. No one disagreed with being stabilized, on speed and on profile, and not floating. In 6(b) it specifically discusses Vref+5 as OK, and other performance adjustments. It does, however, warn of arbitrary speed additives not taken into account by performance, which is completely different than wind additives, or other speed adjustments which are taken in account during a Part 25 and 121 landing assessment.
 
gliderboy said:
Do any of you guys ever retract the flaps a few degrees to put the plane down when you're floating along in ground effect using up runway? I'm not talking about 10 feet above the ground or more, but one or two feet up when you want to put 'er down and get on the brakes.
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I prefer to plan the float into my landing, for the most part that's the point of having speeds and profiles. If you're floating that long, then you didn't do something right to set yourself up for the landing.
 
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