When did you feel ready to upgrade?

[zmiller4]

I delayed.

In the blink of an eye 2 years went by, most of it flying up and down the west coast in easy weather, I've always tried to learn as much as possible from the situations I encounter, but when a few options opened up I had to make a choice. Option one was upgrade back to the northern part of the midwest in the plane I was already flying in middle of winter, option two was stay in the seat I was in until I could upgrade at home, and option three was transition to an FO seat on the other airplane, taking a seat lock.

Some soul-searching revealed that I definitely did not feel safe going back to the Midwest and flying as a new captain with new FO's to terrible airports in awful weather. Option one was out fairly quickly, this realization bothered me and was the main reason I chose the path I did.
I want my career to be largely trouble free, and that means a healthy level of self awareness.

This was close to my situation at what I think was the same airline. I came in with 400hrs of Caribbean turboprop flying from another airline and due to the fast growth in a large upper Midwestern base, I had the requisite 1000hrs 121 time and the seniority to hold CA there after a year. But I’d almost exclusively done west coast and mountain flying and didn’t feel comfortable jumping in right away. Downside was upgrades quickly stopped for several years. Upside was that I wasn’t second from the bottom for the next 4 years. I ended up transferring to large upper Midwestern base and felt ready to upgrade sometime relatively soon after but it wasn’t going to be a reality so I never have it much thought.

 

[Richman]

When I got a notice that I had died of dysentery.

That’s when I was ready for the upgrade.

 

[L-16B]

First possible upgrade. Get in and get out if the name on the side of the plane doesn’t match the paycheck.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

First possible upgrade. Get in and get out if the name on the side of the plane doesn’t match the paycheck.

This.

 

[jtrain609]

This was close to my situation at what I think was the same airline. I came in with 400hrs of Caribbean turboprop flying from another airline and due to the fast growth in a large upper Midwestern base, I had the requisite 1000hrs 121 time and the seniority to hold CA there after a year. But I’d almost exclusively done west coast and mountain flying and didn’t feel comfortable jumping in right away. Downside was upgrades quickly stopped for several years. Upside was that I wasn’t second from the bottom for the next 4 years. I ended up transferring to large upper Midwestern base and felt ready to upgrade sometime relatively soon after but it wasn’t going to be a reality so I never have it much thought.

So...I don't understand this.

I've been based all over the country at this point, and the threats you experience from Denver west are so significantly worse than flying in the midwest that the two types of flying almost don't compare.

Is the weather usually good on the west coast? If you're going in and out of LAS and PHX ever day, sure. But I've diverted more from fog in LAX and SFO more than I have on the east coast/midwest, and the prospect of dealing with snow AND mountains in ABQ and RNO is no joke.

If you can handle Reno on a crap day, then Minot isn't even an issue. And the hubs are PHENOMAL about winter weather. MSP and DTW might as well have drive through deicing, and their runways get plowed well and with regularity.

 

[Baronman]

First upgrade was 2.5 years in 121 and about 3500TT. I felt ready at the time. I wasn’t nervous, I was chomping at the bit... another 3 years probably would have done me well though, just to get the feel of more Captain styles. Coming to my major carrier years later (and being an FO again) I think filled in a lot of those gaps in my experience. I began to think much more about who was an effective CA, who wasn’t and how id bring that to the left seat again.

 

[zmiller4]

So...I don't understand this.

I've been based all over the country at this point, and the threats you experience from Denver west are so significantly worse than flying in the midwest that the two types of flying almost don't compare.

Is the weather usually good on the west coast? If you're going in and out of LAS and PHX ever day, sure. But I've diverted more from fog in LAX and SFO more than I have on the east coast/midwest, and the prospect of dealing with snow AND mountains in ABQ and RNO is no joke.

If you can handle Reno on a crap day, then Minot isn't even an issue. And the hubs are PHENOMAL about winter weather. MSP and DTW might as well have drive through deicing, and their runways get plowed well and with regularity.

Yes and no.

The true west coast flying we were doing was cake. Yeah you might divert some but in general if you made it to the approach with your require visibility you were getting in; if not it was 20mins inland to a clear alternate.

The inter mountain west is more challenging, for sure.

But the eastern half of the US is fundamentally unique in the intensity of its weather, and that gets compounded with a crapshow of an airport like O’Hare or EWR.

The most nervous I’ve been in an airplane from sketchy, rapidly changing weather was for sure in the western mountains.

The most nervous I’ve been about true airline pilot •—how to deal with weather that you know is there and have to figure out how much fuel, which direction to go, how do we get around/through this line, is it safe to land in this—that’s largely been in the central US.

 

[jtrain609]

Yes and no.

The true west coast flying we were doing was cake. Yeah you might divert some but in general if you made it to the approach with your require visibility you were getting in; if not it was 20mins inland to a clear alternate.

The inter mountain west is more challenging, for sure.

But the eastern half of the US is fundamentally unique in the intensity of its weather, and that gets compounded with a crapshow of an airport like O’Hare or EWR.

The most nervous I’ve been in an airplane from sketchy, rapidly changing weather was for sure in the western mountains.

The most nervous I’ve been about true airline pilot •—how to deal with weather that you know is there and have to figure out how much fuel, which direction to go, how do we get around/through this line, is it safe to land in this—that’s largely been in the central US.

Add gas and/or say no. You find a hole or you don't. If you don't, you go somewhere else. Once you find your zen of not giving a • what anyone thinks about you safely managing the flight, it's the easiest job in the world.

We were once going from VPS to ORD. About halfway there, we get a message from dispatch telling us there's a tornado sitting on the airport in ORD and asked if we had the gas to make it to IAH. Sure, no problem. We start heading to IAH and can't find a hole in a line of weather around DFW. Solution? We go to MAF and grab some gas.

Was dispatch pissed? Yup. Did I give any •s? Nope.

 

[zmiller4]

Add gas and/or say no. You find a hole or you don't. If you don't, you go somewhere else. Once you find your zen of not giving a • what anyone thinks about you safely managing the flight, it's the easiest job in the world.

We were once going from VPS to ORD. About halfway there, we get a message from dispatch telling us there's a tornado sitting on the airport in ORD and asked if we had the gas to make it to IAH. Sure, no problem. We start heading to IAH and can't find a hole in a line of weather around DFW. Solution? We go to MAF and grab some gas.

Was dispatch pissed? Yup. Did I give any •s? Nope.

Sure thing. But that’s not the kind of decision you generally have to make with west coast flying. The geography of the coastal airports is such that if SFO is too gross to land, SMF is ok. Same is usually true in the LA basin.

The decision you had to make—and I had to do the same thing a number of times flying out of ORD—is a little specific to flying across the center of the country.

It’s not that it’s necessarily more difficult, just that if you’ve spent a year as an FO on the west coast, it’s pretty different and challenging.

The same is true the other way. I flew with multiple captains who were primarily Midwest flyers who completely botched mountain flying.

 

[GypsyPilot]

So...I don't understand this.

I've been based all over the country at this point, and the threats you experience from Denver west are so significantly worse than flying in the midwest that the two types of flying almost don't compare.

Is the weather usually good on the west coast? If you're going in and out of LAS and PHX ever day, sure. But I've diverted more from fog in LAX and SFO more than I have on the east coast/midwest, and the prospect of dealing with snow AND mountains in ABQ and RNO is no joke.

If you can handle Reno on a crap day, then Minot isn't even an issue. And the hubs are PHENOMAL about winter weather. MSP and DTW might as well have drive through deicing, and their runways get plowed well and with regularity.

100% agree. I spent four years as a Brasilia and CRJ FO, all west coast and mountain flying. Did lots of diverts, sometimes once/week in the winter. I took the first available upgrade, which was MSP CRJ CA. That flying wasn’t without its challenges, but the stuff I did as a FO definitely prepared me well for it.

As far as the OP question:
When did I know when I was ready? Since it took me four years to even get a chance, I was more than ready when my award came. Particularly that fourth year, when my patience for any kind of tool CA was very thin. Now that I think about it, more than anything else it was dealing with annoying CAs that made me know I was ready. Guys like @LeeD were awesome, but definitely not what you always got.

I’m closing in on three years at the current place, and can now hold CA at our junior base/plane. Definitely holding off for a variety of reasons though, I had a MUCH bigger drive and push for it when I was at the regionals.

 

[Crockrocket94]

When I was flying 135, I spent about a year and a half as a FO/SIC in a number of Citations before a need drove the company to offer me a PIC slot. I had about 2100TT with around 500/600 or so in the jets. I felt comfortable with the operation at the time so the upgrade happened pretty seamlessly. I learned a lot about decision making and having a reason for what I did. If I took extra fuel. I had a reason. If I didn't want to depart right then I had a reason. Also on the 91/135 side, there was a lot of "what does the client want to do". So I would give them options that were safe or prudent. Be it we had a mechanical issue, operational issue or weather issue. Looking back I may have been to hasty on some decisions, but I never got myself in trouble so I will chalk that up to experience gained over time resulting in better judgement now.

As a 121 FO now, Its only been a year and a half with this operation, and I am still learning the small stuff to better prepare myself for the big picture when the opportunity arrises, which will be most likely not within the next 6 years. By that time I am sure I will be well, well prepared operationally for the left seat duties. So for now, I watch what people do, see what works, what doesn't. What I could do to better the situation for the FA and the PAX and how to manage tricky situations without compromising safety or pissing anyone off. They always say you learn the most while doing - and that's pretty much how upgrades are. You can prepare forever in the right seat, but you will figure out quickly things happen you can't prepare for when you sit over there on the other side.

 

[awair]

I was “ready“ at around 3500 hours total, half of which was on my then current type, B737. My course came up a few months later, but I had opted to switch to another carrier with an international wide-body fleet.

I still thought I was ready for the next year and a half. Maybe I was - for the previous, domestic operation. It took another year of knowing that I definitely was nowhere even close, to realise what was involved.

As I released the parking brake on my first trip as Commander, I didn’t feel ready, but after a couple of months I realised I probably had been.

Everyone’s different, and it’s hard to judge the difference between over-confidence and preparation.

The guys who were definitely ready, were previous Captains who, when offered a Direct command, opted to sit in the RHS ‘for a while’, to work out how the airline operated!

Good luck, and enjoy!

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Long time listener, first time upgrader (next month) and I feel I’m pretty ready.

At my last job I was an FO for 8 years. If you’re not ready after that, well...

At my current job I’ve been an FO for 5.5 years (holy crap that goes by fast). Being a good captain involves a couple skill sets and I’m beginning to become more comfortable with all of them. In the long haul world, we get to “try on the seat” when the captain is on break. Over the years I’ve handled quite a few issues while I was pretending to be in charge, haven’t had to wake up the boss, nor have they been upset with how I handled things in their absence.

I’ve gotten really good at finding stuff in the books, I’ve seen quite a few abnormal situations, I’ve seen almost all of our operation, and I’ve really enjoyed when I get to fly with new people who tend to be more comfortable asking me questions than the captain.

I know it’s going to be a lot of work, but I’m looking forward to finally upgrading.

 

[BrettInLJ]

I am upgrading and transitioning to a different plane starting next month. During the first two years I was definitely absorbing as much as possible and flying with a swath of different personality types as captains- for the most part different types of good with few exceptions. Upgrading on the 175 that early was not an option but I kept my bid in just because. I waited until around the 2 year mark to put my bid in for the CRJ upgrade as I really wanted to gain more experience watching captains, encountering new situations, etc.

Around the 2 year mark I put my upgrade/transition bid. I didn't necessarily feel "ready" but in the way that it is not healthy to feel completely ready before you actually do it. I got bypassed a couple months, and was expecting a class the following month. Then COVID hit and all classes were canceled. Fast forward almost a year later and I've been flying nice trips, mostly 1-days up and down the west coast and occasionally Texas turns. Nothing much more complex or exciting than diverting inland when unexpected fog/low vis creeps in with no alternate filed.

Then one day I get the unexpected email that my upgrade bid has been accepted to a Texas base on the CRJ. I wasn't seeing that coming has CRJ classes had just started and were much smaller than this upcoming one. So here I am. Do I feel ready? No. But I intend to get there by preparing as much as humanely possible between now and the day I show up for class. Especially on the CRM/Threat Error Management, decision making, etc.

I could have held out for the ERJ upgrade and maybe I would have got it this year. But that is a big maybe in this industry. Would I have felt ready in that scenario? Probably not, but again it's about doing what you can that is under your control to make yourself "ready". I'll let you know how it turns out in a few months.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I am upgrading and transitioning to a different plane starting next month.

Don't say you weren't warned, repeatedly!

 

[TWP]

When I knew I wouldn’t let anything curb my better judgement.

Smart guy who knows the plane inside out...who cares. Stick and rudder skills sent down from Jesus himself....who cares.

Lot of dead talented people who didn’t use their judgement. Tenerife being a shining example of all the talent and smarts in the world not meaning a thing in the face of poor judgement

Lot of less than talented individuals with incredible careers because their judgement is that good.

 

[ozziecat35]

Full disclosure I’m back in the right seat due to Covid, but I upgraded right at 1,000 hrs 121 time, 2,500 TT about 15 months after hitting the line at my little cheese based regional carrier. 80% of our Captains are awesome and set a great example, with a good percentage of those willing to actively mentor you if you showed interest. The other 20% just didn’t care and a small subset of them are the standard “don’t be that guy” examples which are important as a new FO to learn the whole chameleon requirements.

I had 2 seasons worth of winters and Midwest storms under my belt, and while I didn’t feel “ready” I did feel I had kind of stalled in my professional development in the right seat.

I hope to get back over to the other side this year, but who knows at this point. I’d really like to have some 121 TPIC before I am able to escape RJ land.

 

[tcco94]

I knew I was ready as soon as I wanted to start slam clicking on most crews

To be honest, I just felt ready and very excited the day I got my CA bid.

 

[JustinS]

I took first available upgrade at my previous shop which ended up being 2 years. I had about 3300TT and 1800 hours in the plane I was flying. I felt very ready with that amount of experience, and it was a lot of fun. I learned from some really great captains in a small senior base, and I continued to learn a lot after I upgraded

 

[SFLAX]

Besides the money, don’t ever leave money on the table, if you go out on medical...70% of a bigger number is a bigger number. Also, I don’t get the whole, “ I didn’t feel ready”...then you shouldn’t be in the right seat as well. You won’t see every situation, won’t have the answer in your head, that is why you make a call or look it up. All you need to know is, nothing is an emergency, unless you make it one, and if it’s fire, explosion...I assure you, you probably won’t see it in the right seat, before you go to the left...sack up and move up...