What's up with 9e

jynxyjoe said:
That will get better after a time, so far there's been no time to enjoy you guys except in the jumpseat. Plus every time I see a Pinnacle jumpseater I wonder if this will be the day I'll meet John Hunter, *shiver*. Nope, what company needs is a giant team sport where both sides get divided up and made to play with one another. Know what? Already happening in MSP. Hell we get Pinnacle guys coming into our crew room in MSP, never get to see that at any other base. Both sides need to make an effort, they aren't. In Kennedy it's been such a joke walking into that crew room time after time, except now we actually get to start wearing the uniforms on the 21st. Betcha the dirty looks will stop then.
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Quite likely. You'll be less obvious at that point. :) I can understand a lot of the animosity in JFK, especially from the FOs. They see the XJ and 9L guys as career c-blockers. The senior guys were JUST about to upgrade, some even had upgrade class dates. Then BAM! "Sorry, you're going to be an FO for another 2 or 3 years," and a lot of it was because of where people fell on the ISL. If they COULD bid to the Saab or the Q400 for a CA slot, they would. Unfortunately, they can't. Same can't be said of the other two properties. So, because we got jacked on the ratios, they're watching what (in some cases) was their CA slot go to guys that (in many cases) were hired after them at a different airline. I can understand their animosity. In MSP, MEM or ATL, CA slots were super senior anyway, so you don't see that as much. DTW is maybe a little bit more equal. JFK, though, is super-junior. So, you've got guys that were planning on going there, upgrading and moving on that are now stuck. Until 11-09 is finished falling out (which at this point will be WELL into 2013 it seems), we can't even have another vacancy for guys to move around.

The Merger has been mismanaged by the Pinnacle inbreds, we should have been one uniform a year ago, that's not our fault. We as pilots are at fault for the lines continuing to be drawn, because we let the stress of union elections, SLI, and contract negotiations divide us.
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Honestly, I think if the three groups would reach out to the other ones, it wouldn't happen. And I point the finger SQUARELY at the union for this. Wanna know why I don't really care about the union anymore? Because all sides of it (9E, 9L and XJ) have done nothing to heal any wounds. They've made it worse. It doesn't help the fact that I'm in a base who's reps FORGET THEY REP THE BASE a lot of times. When you send out an e-mail saying "We'll be in the crew room" without saying which one, it sends a message. We all know it's in the DTW crew room because they never have meetings in the JFK crew room. In the SLI, each side was out to protect their own guys. Post-SLI....same friggin thing. Our guys wanted to re-visit the ratios to make it "fair and balanced" for the -200 guys. The other tw? Oh, screw that. We might see some 9E guys get more upgrade slots, but we'll be happy to take those -200 spots from ya. The dispute resolution was supposed to be figured out shortly after the award. Almost a year later, 2 of the 3 sides just don't really care about meeting to discuss it. Our union leaders on the 9E side tried the whole "We need to be the surviving MEC" move. IMHO, that was a dickish move, too. Post-SLI, we needed to come together and stop being ex-Mesaba, ex-Colgon or ex-Pinnacle and just be all Pinnacle. I know the corporate side isn't helping on that, but ya know, the union could have done a LOT more work towards making us all one pilot group, at least in name. They didn't. They're not. And they can go to hell as far as I care. Honestly, I'm beginning to look FORWARD to working at a non-union carrier, which is scaring the bejesus out of me.

This job isn't worth the stress, thankfully, it's only as stressful as you want to make it.
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Which is why I got the F out of union work. I got tired of trying to feed people lines I didn't by off on myself.

Is that a part of that DOH vs sim training thing you explained to me on the phone?
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Yep. That was management's "Thanks for being a loyal Pinnacle employee, but we're still going to screw you." Hire date at XJ and 9L means exactly that. "Hire date" at Pinnacle means the day you started class, but in reality your pay, vacation, sick time, 401k, etc goes off your "Longevity date." My "class date" at 9E was 3/6/2006. My "longevity date" is 5/12/2006. Which means, on 3/6 I get a snazzy letter from Sean. On 5/12 I get the important stuff, like a pay raise. Guys from XJ and Colgan get it all on their hire date. New hires that came in post merger get it all on their hire dates. The only people that get hosed are the 9E guys that were hired pre-merger. The company said it would cost too much to make us all equal to everyone else. I love being a second class citizen.....
 
kellwolf said:
Quite likely. You'll be less obvious at that point. :) I can understand a lot of the animosity in JFK, especially from the FOs. They see the XJ and 9L guys as career c-blockers. The senior guys were JUST about to upgrade, some even had upgrade class dates. Then BAM! "Sorry, you're going to be an FO for another 2 or 3 years," and a lot of it was because of where people fell on the ISL. If they COULD bid to the Saab or the Q400 for a CA slot, they would. Unfortunately, they can't. Same can't be said of the other two properties. So, because we got jacked on the ratios, they're watching what (in some cases) was their CA slot go to guys that (in many cases) were hired after them at a different airline. I can understand their animosity. In MSP, MEM or ATL, CA slots were super senior anyway, so you don't see that as much. DTW is maybe a little bit more equal. JFK, though, is super-junior. So, you've got guys that were planning on going there, upgrading and moving on that are now stuck. Until 11-09 is finished falling out (which at this point will be WELL into 2013 it seems), we can't even have another vacancy for guys to move around.



Honestly, I think if the three groups would reach out to the other ones, it wouldn't happen. And I point the finger SQUARELY at the union for this. Wanna know why I don't really care about the union anymore? Because all sides of it (9E, 9L and XJ) have done nothing to heal any wounds. They've made it worse. It doesn't help the fact that I'm in a base who's reps FORGET THEY REP THE BASE a lot of times. When you send out an e-mail saying "We'll be in the crew room" without saying which one, it sends a message. We all know it's in the DTW crew room because they never have meetings in the JFK crew room. In the SLI, each side was out to protect their own guys. Post-SLI....same friggin thing. Our guys wanted to re-visit the ratios to make it "fair and balanced" for the -200 guys. The other tw? Oh, screw that. We might see some 9E guys get more upgrade slots, but we'll be happy to take those -200 spots from ya. The dispute resolution was supposed to be figured out shortly after the award. Almost a year later, 2 of the 3 sides just don't really care about meeting to discuss it. Our union leaders on the 9E side tried the whole "We need to be the surviving MEC" move. IMHO, that was a dickish move, too. Post-SLI, we needed to come together and stop being ex-Mesaba, ex-Colgon or ex-Pinnacle and just be all Pinnacle. I know the corporate side isn't helping on that, but ya know, the union could have done a LOT more work towards making us all one pilot group, at least in name. They didn't. They're not. And they can go to hell as far as I care. Honestly, I'm beginning to look FORWARD to working at a non-union carrier, which is scaring the bejesus out of me.



Which is why I got the F out of union work. I got tired of trying to feed people lines I didn't by off on myself.



Yep. That was management's "Thanks for being a loyal Pinnacle employee, but we're still going to screw you." Hire date at XJ and 9L means exactly that. "Hire date" at Pinnacle means the day you started class, but in reality your pay, vacation, sick time, 401k, etc goes off your "Longevity date." My "class date" at 9E was 3/6/2006. My "longevity date" is 5/12/2006. Which means, on 3/6 I get a snazzy letter from Sean. On 5/12 I get the important stuff, like a pay raise. Guys from XJ and Colgan get it all on their hire date. New hires that came in post merger get it all on their hire dates. The only people that get hosed are the 9E guys that were hired pre-merger. The company said it would cost too much to make us all equal to everyone else. I love being a second class citizen.....
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I've been hearing lots of the " them v. Us" coming through training. I've done oe with a few 9E transplants ( ca and FO) and they have all said coming to Colgan training, they have been treated with respect, dignity and honesty. Nobody is out to trick you, and we try to make sure it's a good learning environment. Apparently the 9e side seems to be trying to " hold out" the outsiders coming through training... Using totally unrealistic situations and questions bordering on absurd during Orals.

Kinda low ball when you take it out on already displaced pilots because they're moving to "your" equipment.

Neither here nor there, but when that type of crap is going on, how would you expect it at less than the union level?
 
I've flown with a couple guys this month who had just finished PCs and they have all mentioned that the instructors mentioned how the Colgan guys have been failing rides/sims for pretty basic, general knowledge stuff. Apparently the bust rate is quite high, I forget the number but was shocked when I heard it. On the flip side the Mesaba guys seem to be getting through just fine so there doesn't seem to any sort of "screw the outsiders" campaign going on. We've been having Mesaba guys coming over here since the MOU was negotiated and I have yet to hear any of them complain about being treated unfairly on checkrides/orals.
 
Is a normal condition shooting a single engine approach in icing conditions, going missed and suddenly seeing 39deg c outside?

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I never said it wasn't true, was just repeating what I've heard. If you guys really think there is a vendetta against Colgan guys talk to your reps, let the union look into it.
 
kellwolf said:
Everything
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Yeah I understand the feelings about the upgrade, it is a nervous time. Next year or the year after doesn't Pinnacle start having 7 year FO's? I ask because some of the clowns at my company who say "Ya know, the upgrades will happen faster than anyone thinks, blah blah blah, I was here 7 years before I upgraded, jaw jaw jaw" I usually retort with "next year Pinnacle will have 7 year FO's and they are still years from upgrading."

undsioux1 said:
On the flip side the Mesaba guys seem to be getting through just fine so there doesn't seem to any sort of "screw the outsiders" campaign going on. We've been having Mesaba guys coming over here since the MOU was negotiated and I have yet to hear any of them complain about being treated unfairly on checkrides/orals.
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I have, but they do it in our crew rooms and when we still had private boards for Mesaba. They felt that it's best to cooperate and graduate, and we'd get the clowns out later just like we did at Mesaba post bankruptcy. I can't speak for everyone that went through, just the few I've run across.

TUCKnTRUCK said:
Is a normal condition shooting a single engine approach in icing conditions, going missed and suddenly seeing 39deg c outside?

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No, no. That's completely normal.

Things that will get fixed with AQP for $500 Alex?
 
jynxyjoe said:
Things that will get fixed with AQP for $500 Alex?
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Yeah, from what I'm hearing don't hold your breathe on AQP. Once again, can't think much more past getting 11-09 done, which is taking forever. As for the vendetta against outsiders on the 9E side....who knows. Could be. Could just be guys looking for someone else to blame for a bust. I don't have any first hand knowledge of that situation. As for the icing thing, yeah. I could see it happening. Sim guy wants to see if you notice you're in icing and just doesn't bump the temp up until moving on to the next check box.
 
kellwolf said:
Yeah, from what I'm hearing don't hold your breathe on AQP. Once again, can't think much more past getting 11-09 done, which is taking forever. As for the vendetta against outsiders on the 9E side....who knows. Could be. Could just be guys looking for someone else to blame for a bust. I don't have any first hand knowledge of that situation. As for the icing thing, yeah. I could see it happening. Sim guy wants to see if you notice you're in icing and just doesn't bump the temp up until moving on to the next check box.
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the icing to 39deg c was done on a type ride... Not a box checking session. Not required, not part of the type...

Either way, systemically high failure rates in one training program indicate faults in the training program, not of the pilots testing. One of the early fails had significant turbine time at majors... So it's not like he didn't understand how a jet works.
 
jynxyjoe said:
I always hear that, do the Pinnacle management illiterate inbreds know we have an AQP program up and running for the -200? This seems too easy... like Ipads.
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Oh, I know. They'll probably say it has something to do with FAA certification and crossing certificates blah blah blah. What they mean to say is "We don't have the sim time/sim instructors/$$$$ to do that and fix this debacle we've caused."

The 9E training program has been jacked for a while. I don't consider the Colgan guys coming through to be part of a "significantly high failure rate" simply because the pass rate wasn't all that hot to begin with. Honestly, I'd be TERRIFIED to go through upgrade training here if I was coming from another airplane without having flown the -200 for a while. Going through upgrade after being on the -200 for 2 years was pretty much a "do it yourself" course. Can't imagine how it would have been if I hadn't had 2 years of experience on the jet.
 
AQP isn't an option here pretty soon. You either do AQP, or you keep doing PC's with all the additional requirements of AQP, turning EVERY air carrier training program into AQP by default.
 
kellwolf said:
Oh, I know. They'll probably say it has something to do with FAA certification and crossing certificates blah blah blah. What they mean to say is "We don't have the sim time/sim instructors/$$$$ to do that and fix this debacle we've caused."

The 9E training program has been jacked for a while. I don't consider the Colgan guys coming through to be part of a "significantly high failure rate" simply because the pass rate wasn't all that hot to begin with. Honestly, I'd be TERRIFIED to go through upgrade training here if I was coming from another airplane without having flown the -200 for a while. Going through upgrade after being on the -200 for 2 years was pretty much a "do it yourself" course. Can't imagine how it would have been if I hadn't had 2 years of experience on the jet.
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The guy I talked to that went through the classroom said day one (all day) they did the charts and updates, apparently we've taken for granted at Mesaba that all being done for you. Day two they went through all the slides as fast as the computer would click through them and took 3 tests. Pretty awesome.
 
I think part of the reason Colgan guys/girls are having problems is that Colgan gave you a study guide and could only ask questions that came from it. I saw a lot of people doing rote memorization of the study guide answers and not really understanding the material. This is FOM, systems, etc.

Pinnacle gives out a study guide as well but your oral will not come from it. I don't know whether that's good or bad, but I can see it being a problem for people who are used to knowing everything they'll be asked in the oral exam.
 
You should know everything that will be asked in your oral; everything that is in the CFM. Pretty simple eh? :)
 
Call it what you will, but a failure I heard of was on a type ride, the examiner gave the Colgan Captain 4 RA's to climb and the CA did not turn off the APU (by 14k?) therefore busting a limitation of the airplane. End of type ride. Pink slip for reckless operation.

I'm not judging whether it's fair, just relaying the story.
 
SmitteyB said:
Call it what you will, but a failure I heard of was on a type ride, the examiner gave the Colgan Captain 4 RA's to climb and the CA did not turn off the APU (by 14k?) therefore busting a limitation of the airplane. End of type ride. Pink slip for reckless operation.

I'm not judging whether it's fair, just relaying the story.
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If that was the case I am calling BS on the examiner... 4 RA's? WTF? Sounds like a load of horse manure to me...
 
SmitteyB said:
Call it what you will, but a failure I heard of was on a type ride, the examiner gave the Colgan Captain 4 RA's to climb and the CA did not turn off the APU (by 14k?) therefore busting a limitation of the airplane. End of type ride. Pink slip for reckless operation.

I'm not judging whether it's fair, just relaying the story.
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it wasn't 4, but two. The first one at 3k feet, with seat support that hadn't flown in 2 years? Sent to 14k feet, given another climb RA. This was on a second attempt, and was already a completed item on the first ride. Not required, but always optional on a retest.

I'm sorry, but if you are intentionally setting people up to fail, then you have no place in a modern training department.

Colgan didn't start the test guide until 2 years ago? And was implemented solution to provide a fair and equal testing standard.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
I've been hearing lots of the " them v. Us" coming through training. I've done oe with a few 9E transplants ( ca and FO) and they have all said coming to Colgan training, they have been treated with respect, dignity and honesty. Nobody is out to trick you, and we try to make sure it's a good learning environment. Apparently the 9e side seems to be trying to " hold out" the outsiders coming through training... Using totally unrealistic situations and questions bordering on absurd during Orals.

Kinda low ball when you take it out on already displaced pilots because they're moving to "your" equipment.

Neither here nor there, but when that type of crap is going on, how would you expect it at less than the union level?
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I think that is just Pinnacle training not anything personal. It's like the old Mesaba training department. Hopefully the training reaper makes his way through Memphis.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
it wasn't 4, but two. The first one at 3k feet, with seat support that hadn't flown in 2 years? Sent to 14k feet, given another climb RA. This was on a second attempt, and was already a completed item on the first ride. Not required, but always optional on a retest.

I'm sorry, but if you are intentionally setting people up to fail, then you have no place in a modern training department.

Colgan didn't start the test guide until 2 years ago? And was implemented solution to provide a fair and equal testing standard.
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Yup, this is what happened- with an extremely skilled and competent captain that was attempting to transition. Very sad to see that sort of thing happening on the PCL side.

edit: redacted, can't comment on certain things!
 
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