What's up with 9e

sorrygottarunway said:
Yup, this is what happened- with an extremely skilled and competent captain that was attempting to transition. Very sad to see that sort of thing happening on the PCL side.

edit: redacted, can't comment on certain things!
Click to expand...

I get frustrated with the "prove yourself" mentality. It does nothing to help the pilots progress, or learn a new airplane. The are much better ways to instill confidence in a canidate than letting the survive the wringer. Yeah, we all have stories about a time in the sim, where you had to go missed on one engine, with the gear stuck down, flaps frozen, out of fuel and a cabin fire.. but what does that really teach us. Sending somebody up to 14k feet when you see the APU is on, and then giving a climb RA accomplishes what? All that APD has done is instill hostility towards himself, and the training program. The canidate hasn't learned anything, other than how to protect himself.

Turn the tables, Put him in my sim. Give him a Nav Integ at 79 knots while fighting gusting winds so he misses it... then bust his ride. What does he learn? The point of a checking even is not to see if you can fail somebody, but, to see if they perform to esablished standards. Safety data has proven time, and time again, that the most effective way to train safe pilots is not to throw them through the bender.

I'll be honest, the 9e guys that ive had come though, get on the line and cant believe how "different" the experience was. Top comments are always, we were treated with respect, treated like they wanted us to succeed. Training was very upfront, and they never felt like they were being tricked, goaded, or, "tested" They knew what to expect. They liked how upfront everything was. They knew what their expected standards were from the start. One canidate said, : you have no idea how nice it is, to not feel like they are gunning for you" WTH? why should I as a standards captain, or a training captain ever want anything other than sucessfull completion from you? I know that our department by and large, is new. We have a lot of good people doing good stuff with it. We went out and got help from mainline partners, from messaba, and from our pilots. One thing I promise you though, there is not a single person in our department who doesn't want you to do well. Nobody out there wants to trick you into a bust. Even the guys with "reps" here for being strict, are very upfront about it. They won't put you into a position intentionally where you are likely to bust.

If your afraid to go into a new program, just because of the training department, then its time to change that.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
I get frustrated with the "prove yourself" mentality. It does nothing to help the pilots progress, or learn a new airplane. The are much better ways to instill confidence in a canidate than letting the survive the wringer. Yeah, we all have stories about a time in the sim, where you had to go missed on one engine, with the gear stuck down, flaps frozen, out of fuel and a cabin fire.. but what does that really teach us. Sending somebody up to 14k feet when you see the APU is on, and then giving a climb RA accomplishes what? All that APD has done is instill hostility towards himself, and the training program. The canidate hasn't learned anything, other than how to protect himself.

Turn the tables, Put him in my sim. Give him a Nav Integ at 79 knots while fighting gusting winds so he misses it... then bust his ride. What does he learn? The point of a checking even is not to see if you can fail somebody, but, to see if they perform to esablished standards. Safety data has proven time, and time again, that the most effective way to train safe pilots is not to throw them through the bender.

I'll be honest, the 9e guys that ive had come though, get on the line and cant believe how "different" the experience was. Top comments are always, we were treated with respect, treated like they wanted us to succeed. Training was very upfront, and they never felt like they were being tricked, goaded, or, "tested" They knew what to expect. They liked how upfront everything was. They knew what their expected standards were from the start. One canidate said, : you have no idea how nice it is, to not feel like they are gunning for you" WTH? why should I as a standards captain, or a training captain ever want anything other than sucessfull completion from you? I know that our department by and large, is new. We have a lot of good people doing good stuff with it. We went out and got help from mainline partners, from messaba, and from our pilots. One thing I promise you though, there is not a single person in our department who doesn't want you to do well. Nobody out there wants to trick you into a bust. Even the guys with "reps" here for being strict, are very upfront about it. They won't put you into a position intentionally where you are likely to bust.

If your afraid to go into a new program, just because of the training department, then its time to change that.
Click to expand...

The Checking needs to match the training. If said scenarios you are describing in the 9e checking events are based on ASAP reports, FOQA data or the like then it is a valid scenario and should be tested but also trained. If they are gotcha scenarios pulled out of an examiners nethers then it is complete crap and the union needs to work overtime to get them out!

The goal in training is to produce pilots that will enhance safety, operational efficiency and customer service. If your training isn't leading a pilot to those ends, then your training needs to be fundamentally changed.
 
sherpa said:
The Checking needs to match the training. If said scenarios you are describing in the 9e checking events are based on ASAP reports, FOQA data or the like then it is a valid scenario and should be tested but also trained. If they are gotcha scenarios pulled out of an examiners nethers then it is complete crap and the union needs to work overtime to get them out!

The goal in training is to produce pilots that will enhance safety, operational efficiency and customer service. If your training isn't leading a pilot to those ends, then your training needs to be fundamentally changed.
Click to expand...

If it really is that bad down there (first I'm hearing about it from the other point of view) GET THE UNION INVOLVED!! I would find it hard to believe that Tom Wychor would protect guys that are pulling stunts like this.
 
undsioux1 said:
If it really is that bad down there (first I'm hearing about it from the other point of view) GET THE UNION INVOLVED!! I would find it hard to believe that Tom Wychor would protect guys that are pulling stunts like this.
Click to expand...


This. There are steps to be followed, and the problems won't be corrected unless they are. I know 90% of the "unfair busts" I've heard in the training department here over the past 6 years normally come down to someone trying to rationalize rather than accept they either weren't ready or had an off day. I had the most notorious APD in the program for my type ride, and I thought he was extremely fair. He, however, is the type that will dig deep if he smells blood. Same goes for a couple of other guys. They will, however, give you the chance to redeem yourself like most APDs should. If there's a witch hunt in MEM, then the proper channels need to be observed so the problem can be corrected. Posting rumors and third hand stories on an internet forum won't do anything but cause a panic and make it to where everyone is afraid to go to the sims.
 
Whether this "gate-keeper" mentality is real or imagined the perception is out there and is equally destructive to pilot morale, and unless some leadership is demonstrated by flight standards at all three companies things will not improve. A poor record of pass/fail is also reflection of the effectiveness of an airline's training program and gets the attention of both the FAA and accounting dept. Training needs to be geared toward the practical operation of the aircraft within company procedures. Checking events are a verification that training objectives were met. Anything beyond this and it is no longer an objective checking environment. This isn't rocket science that we are either teaching or testing.
 
sherpa said:
The goal in training is to produce pilots that will enhance safety, operational efficiency and customer service. If your training isn't leading a pilot to those ends, then your training needs to be fundamentally changed.
Click to expand...

Yup. I am not a fan of "evaluation training" where all they do is evaluate everything you do instead of actually training you to become a better pilot.
 
undsioux1 said:
If it really is that bad down there (first I'm hearing about it from the other point of view) GET THE UNION INVOLVED!! I would find it hard to believe that Tom Wychor would protect guys that are pulling stunts like this.
Click to expand...

To be clear, the reason we all know about these problems is because it was passed around by union guys and line pilots. It's been complained about, it's a known issue. It takes time to fix, even with literate and educated managers up in MSP years back (when we had the issue). While a lot of the Mesaba people are in charge, there's still plenty of polished rubes pretending to big time managers the union has to deal with.

kellwolf said:
This. There are steps to be followed, and the problems won't be corrected unless they are. I know 90% of the "unfair busts" I've heard in the training department here over the past 6 years normally come down to someone trying to rationalize rather than accept they either weren't ready or had an off day. I had the most notorious APD in the program for my type ride, and I thought he was extremely fair. He, however, is the type that will dig deep if he smells blood. Same goes for a couple of other guys. They will, however, give you the chance to redeem yourself like most APDs should. If there's a witch hunt in MEM, then the proper channels need to be observed so the problem can be corrected. Posting rumors and third hand stories on an internet forum won't do anything but cause a panic and make it to where everyone is afraid to go to the sims.
Click to expand...

As far as I've heard the proper channels are already alerted. This issue is already pre-SLI old... my favorite complaint so far was an examiner shooting his mouth off at a fMesaba guy about how he should be stapled to the bottom in between APU limitation questions (story condensed for effect). It's an ongoing sporadic occurrence, one which is so old, a lot of us don't think much about sharing the stories.

This stuff happens in training departments, from the stories I hear it's intermittent but still ongoing, and I don't think it hurts anything to remind people to walk on egg shells in there.
 
Which now has me asking the question: if it was pre-Merger, is it real or just rumors of what's happening? I haven't heard any horror stories on the 9E side of things, and I see plenty of former XJ and 9L guys flying the line. I hear tons of rumors of guys busting checkrides for the smallest things. Then when you dig deeper into the story, there's always crucial facts left out. Things like "I was busted for APU stuff" when in fact the guy never checked the ELEC page to make sure the batteries were charged or if the contacts closed to pick up the electrical load. It's in the CFM, but so many guys fail to do that on the line, so they don't even think about it in the sim.
 
kellwolf said:
Which now has me asking the question: if it was pre-Merger, is it real or just rumors of what's happening? I haven't heard any horror stories on the 9E side of things, and I see plenty of former XJ and 9L guys flying the line. I hear tons of rumors of guys busting checkrides for the smallest things. Then when you dig deeper into the story, there's always crucial facts left out. Things like "I was busted for APU stuff" when in fact the guy never checked the ELEC page to make sure the batteries were charged or if the contacts closed to pick up the electrical load. It's in the CFM, but so many guys fail to do that on the line, so they don't even think about it in the sim.
Click to expand...
Well you have a valid question. Since we have no evidence one way or the other I suppose it's a matter of faith to some extent. I have no hard evidence (or whatever the term should be) but people I've flown with and whose judgement I trust are highly critical of your training department in Memphis. I can't speak for every rumor, and I'm willing to listen to the other side, however it's clear the training department left a bad taste in many mouths.
 
kellwolf said:
Which now has me asking the question: if it was pre-Merger, is it real or just rumors of what's happening? I haven't heard any horror stories on the 9E side of things, and I see plenty of former XJ and 9L guys flying the line. I hear tons of rumors of guys busting checkrides for the smallest things. Then when you dig deeper into the story, there's always crucial facts left out. Things like "I was busted for APU stuff" when in fact the guy never checked the ELEC page to make sure the batteries were charged or if the contacts closed to pick up the electrical load. It's in the CFM, but so many guys fail to do that on the line, so they don't even think about it in the sim.
Click to expand...

I've done requal training/additoinal training for some of these issues. I've seen the training folders. You've got 4 guys from the 9l training department commenting the last part of this thread. we're not making it up, and we are quite familiar with the pilots that got jerked around in this.

I'm not saying the entire training dept. is out of line, just that there are certain few who are pulling some crap, and making the rest look bad.

It's neither here nor there... I'm still going to go out and do my job the same way each day. I couldn't care less who is in the other seat... I just hope I can pick one side of the plane to fly for a lengthy amount of time... all this back and forth has done a nunber on my landings.
 
Like others have said, this has been a known issue w/ the 9E training department; and with some of the recent statistics, it's clear there is a problem. Either the instructors have a vendetta due to the seniority list integration or the training is crap....or both. I also know things are being investigated. Let's hope it gets worked out before these jokers ruin too many pilot careers in their wake.
 
Have a feeling the PNCL BK is coming today, Friday. Seems like the moons are aligned perfectly for
it. Friday, end of month, last Friday before the April 2 deadline, base management all flown up to Memphis today. I think this may be the day.
 
Nah but for real... Raise your hand if you've flown with an FO who has a class date with republic and/or ExpressJet? //Raises hand 4 times//

Should get interesting here in a few weeks.
 
v1valarob said:
Nah but for real... Raise your hand if you've flown with an FO who has a class date with republic and/or ExpressJet? //Raises hand 4 times//

Should get interesting here in a few weeks.
Click to expand...
Yeah... I can't blame them.

If we are going into bankruptcy it is for the best that they have other jobs. Let's face it, no BK has been declared yet and the company admits they are making good money the 3rd 4th and quarter after. This may all be for nothing, yet I am encouraged many pilots here are praying for sunshine preparing for rain.
 
Ill raise my hand as one of them but I am not punching out until I am at the 99% sure of furlough point, I am at about 70%... Well see. Dont want to go though, new place would be commuting back to where I JUST moved from to my 11-09 (home) base. Good stuff!
 
Fly782 said:
Ill raise my hand as one of them but I am not punching out until I am at the 99% sure of furlough point, I am at about 70%... Well see. Dont want to go though, new place would be commuting back to where I JUST moved from to my 11-09 (home) base. Good stuff!
Click to expand...
You're a minne • aren't you?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top