Whats to shoot for anymore?

[buffalopilot]

Quote from Kit Darby:

"You cant look at this career from the perspective of those who just lost 45% of thier pay, but you need to look at it from the standpoint of where YOU are right now and where you can still get!"

 

[n57flyguy]

n57,

I dont want to try to hijack this thread with our line guy shop talk, but I do like your enthusiasm and passion for service. Our FBO is a busy one indeed and we hadle allot of corporate traffic. You name it, we get it. We also have the military fuel contract for the airport so we get allot of military trainers in as well. It is tough, there is allot of negativity in this field. It does not matter if you are a pilot or a fueler it seems to effect us all. Surreal put it well with the me, me, me attitudes. I definately agree there should be some we in there somewhere.

Thanks a lot! I don't think there are enough of us to have our own fourm...yet

I try to stay optimistic about the field, but I will provide for the truth of the matters that come up. I agree to that there is a lot of me and not enough we. Being where we I'm at now, I try to make it better for us but providing what service I can to individuals who need it.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

I was with you until the last sentence. I do it for the money. I like my job, LOVE the people I work with -- one in particular more than others, right Pamela -- and enjoy it.

But I do it for the money.

There's nothing wrong with that. However, you'd be much happier staying OUT of the flying industry.

 

[surreal1221]

Without an explanation.

Of course, that's the way it works.

You can't just tell people that what they believe is "sad" (your words) without explaining why, or defending your own beliefs.

Hold on right there Lloyd.

I value your opinion more than most people, but one thing I have no patience for is people putting words into my mouth - or forum posts.

I never ONCE said enjoying your job was sad, ever.

What I did say was the following:

Wow Lloyd. Certainly started taking a turn towards the "This career is just fine to me, so it should be just fine to you as well...quit asking for more."

Sad to see it.

I was sad to see that you are becoming one of those individuals who are happy with your position, and when someone else in the industry brings up the topic about pay, QOL, benefits, etc, you're one of the first to run in and tell them "deal with it," in essence.

That - to me, coming from you, is sad. Not enjoying your job.

Got it? Clear? Crystal?

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Hold on right there Lloyd.

I value your opinion more than most people, but one thing I have no patience for is people putting words into my mouth - or forum posts.

I never ONCE said enjoying your job was sad, ever.

What I did say was the following:



I was sad to see that you are becoming one of those individuals who are happy with your position, and when someone else in the industry brings up the topic about pay, QOL, benefits, etc, you're one of the first to run in and tell them "deal with it," in essence.

That - to me, coming from you, is sad. Not enjoying your job.

Got it? Clear? Crystal?

Oh, so you can put words in peoples' mouths, but it kinda stings when somebody else does the same thing, huh?

Live with it.

 

[Airdale]

Yeah, I could have mis-read it. Let's visit it again:



So, I could be wrong. But, when you say things like that after directing the paragraph at me - well, it makes me want to compare the facts and make people feel bad. I don't like doing that anymore, but I have - and I will.



Understood. Just kind of the way it came off.

It's one thing to be willing to fight for the industry. It's another altogether to fight the fight so hard that you hate what you do, and others that DON'T hate what they do.

Sorry about that Lloyd. Looking back over it, I can see that it appears as though I directed towards you, but that wasn't my original intent. I need to proof read better. Sorry!

I only read the first post, so forgive me. I wanted to answer Airdale's question.

What is the end of the tunnel? There isn't one. That isn't the point. It's the ride along the way. You don't take a road trip across the country because it's an easy way to get from point A to point B. You take it because of the people you meet along the way, the sights you see, the places you visit, and the bumps along the road that make it fun.

Everyone is worried about this "end goal." I say find a job that makes you happy, and enjoy it. You need goals along the way, and dreams are even more important. But always worrying about retirement and the "end" will just make each and every day drag on and be miserable, just like they are for that American Airlines A300 FO you met. Next thing you know, you are at the "end," and you missed out on many good times along the way if you would have just put the car in park for a while.

Well said man.

And just to answer a few questions throughout the thread.

You don't become an Airline Pilot for the money. Absolutely no way will that outlook get you far. A good friend of mine, long time aviator and examiner put it this way, "You don't get a flying job to make money. If you want to make money, become a lawyer or stock broker." And its true, you can not be in this for the money.

That being said - everyone has to live, and unfortunately it takes money to live. See here is where our career field differs from most. Most of us love to fly. I've said it plenty of times in the past, and I've even taken a few shots because I've said that I love to fly. I love my job, I wouldn't trade it for an ocean view office and $150k/yr. (Okay...maybe I'd think about it....but it wouldn't be a quick easy decision okay? )

BUT, just because we love to fly or we love our job, doesn't mean we should bend over and take it up the tail with no lube and let management take million dollar bonus while we take pay cuts. We all need money to feed ourselves, our family, pay our bills etc. Therefore, we should always be in a fight to get paid rightfully so for the responsibility that we undertake with this job.

The way I see it, and agree with this perspective or not - because I love to fly and I love my job, I'm going to have a strong will to fight for the best interests of the pilot group.

Seggy and Doug have the right attitude. We all love to fly and we love doing our job, but this doesn't mean we should raise the white flag and barely make minimum wage "just to fly airplanes". I don't have a goal to make a set figure of dollars a year, other then what is needed to comfortably pay the bills and take care of my wife. I do have a goal to make it to a Major and fly something big - but I believe pilots should be paid according to the responsibility and complexity of the job. I'm not going to take a job that undercuts the rest of the industry with 40% lower salaries, even if it is flying the Airbus at JetBlue.

And I'm not affraid to say how much money I make at Colgan. Last month my take home pay was $1,060. When I was unemployed after the military, I was taking home $1600/month from the government. I may only fly a 19 seat airplane, but thats 19 potential souls on board. With 8 legs a day, we transport an average of 80 souls per day. This ain't driving a bus from point A to point B folks - you know that. I think making less then $20k a year in this case is a joke. But I took the job because I love to fly, its a great place to start and pay my dues. Doesn't mean I can't join in the fight to help improve things for myself, everyone else and new pilots behind me.

Understand?

 

[FlyChicaga]

If some airline exec figures this out and has the balls to execute a plan to rebrand his airline like this, they're going to be in good shape.

There is a market for this, and if some airline rolls out a PS type business model instead of the cram 'em in, treat 'em like crap, but give 'em low fares business model, they're going to make some money.

But nobody's got the balls to do it.

ExpressJet Airlines.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Sorry about that Lloyd. Looking back over it, I can see that it appears as though I directed towards you, but that wasn't my original intent. I need to proof read better. Sorry!

No problem - just wanted you know know how it was taken!

 

[NJA_Capt]

NetJets - All Types
3 year FO: $2470/mo salaried
7 year CA: $5630/mo salaried

I think you got those numbers from the 1998 CBA, they are way off. The current rates are below. You must also factor that we have a very generous 401K and company sponsored medical. We also do not have to pay for our own crewmeals (as some of our competitors do).

NetJets 3 yr FO:
7/7 = $43,000 ($3583 mo)
reserve = $51,030 ($4252 mo)

NetJets 7 yr Capt:
7/7 = $96,400 ($8033 mo)
Reserve = $114,410 ($9534 mo)

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/fractional/netjets.html

 

[Brand X]

Sorry about that Lloyd. Looking back over it, I can see that it appears as though I directed towards you, but that wasn't my original intent. I need to proof read better. Sorry!




Well said man.

And just to answer a few questions throughout the thread.

You don't become an Airline Pilot for the money. Absolutely no way will that outlook get you far. A good friend of mine, long time aviator and examiner put it this way, "You don't get a flying job to make money. If you want to make money, become a lawyer or stock broker." And its true, you can not be in this for the money.

That being said - everyone has to live, and unfortunately it takes moneylove to fly. to live. See here is where our career field differs from most. Most of us I've said it plenty of times in the past, and I've even taken a few shots because I've said that I love to fly. I love my job, I wouldn't trade it for an ocean view office and $150k/yr. (Okay...maybe I'd think about it....but it wouldn't be a quick easy decision okay? )

BUT, just because we love to fly or we love our job, doesn't mean we should bend over and take it up the tail with no lube and let management take million dollar bonus while we take pay cuts. We all need money to feed ourselves, our family, pay our bills etc. Therefore, we should always be in a fight to get paid rightfully so for the responsibility that we undertake with this job.

The way I see it, and agree with this perspective or not - because I love to fly and I love my job, I'm going to have a strong will to fight for the best interests of the pilot group.

Seggy and Doug have the right attitude. We all love to fly and we love doing our job, but this doesn't mean we should raise the white flag and barely make minimum wage "just to fly airplanes". I don't have a goal to make a set figure of dollars a year, other then what is needed to comfortably pay the bills and take care of my wife. I do have a goal to make it to a Major and fly something big - but I believe pilots should be paid according to the responsibility and complexity of the job. I'm not going to take a job that undercuts the rest of the industry with 40% lower salaries, even if it is flying the Airbus at JetBlue.

And I'm not affraid to say how much money I make at Colgan. Last month my take home pay was $1,060. When I was unemployed after the military, I was taking home $1600/month from the government. I may only fly a 19 seat airplane, but thats 19 potential souls on board. With 8 legs a day, we transport an average of 80 souls per day. This ain't driving a bus from point A to point B folks - you know that. I think making less then $20k a year in this case is a joke. But I took the job because I love to fly, its a great place to start and pay my dues. Doesn't mean I can't join in the fight to help improve things for myself, everyone else and new pilots behind me.

Understand?

This job for me is ALL about the money. How MUCH money I can make in exchange for how LITTLE effort I have to put out. I fly an average of about 150 hours a year. I got into flying the the singular goal of making good money and I've succeeded. If my flying job didn't provide the pay and benefits I require, I wouldn't be flying. If something happened and I couldn't fly anymore, like a medical condition, I wouldn't miss it one bit. In fact, the way my luck runs, I won't be able to medical out. If I did medical out, I'd be free to pursue other endeavors and still take home 66% of my guarantee pay tax free.

 

[Velocipede]

Respectfully, you're not at the mercy of dozens of carriers that will gladly underbid your pay rates, take pay freezes to fly ever larger equipment, and in general do anything they can to get more aircraft on property to upgrade quicker.

Actually, you're a the mercy of PILOTS who take jobs with the carriers who underbid your pay/benefits packages. And then you support THEM by letting them ride your jumpseat in the name of professional courtesy.

WAKE UP!

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Please don't, Velo . . .

 

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Velocipede = Count Duku...aka..the dark side

 

[FlyOrDie]

Pilots will never be happy.

I say being satisfied is not an innate pilot characteristic. Take for example the first time you started to feel comfortable in an airplane, suddenly the airplane became too slow, underpowered, not sexy enough, outdated, you found reasons to want more. You wanted to move up.

I love being around airplanes but it is a freaking job so I feel that I should be compensated accordingly, I want more.

 

[Boom Boom]

the MD-10 or any of a number of older generation aircraft was harder, less automation, less protection (TCAS et. al.).

MD-10 is a DC-10 with MD-11 Avionics.. Definately NOT less automation.. In fact, probably the most automated we have on the property.. Old airframe and that has led to some problems but we are the sole operators so I wouldn't count that as an example...

And it has TCAS plus a whole lot more...

FedEx B727 - 74 hr/mo min guarantee.
5 year FO: $104/hr
8 year CA: $168/hr

Actual B727:
5 year FO: $114/hr
8 year CA: $180/hr

Widebody:
5 year FO: $133/hr
8 year CA: $211/hr

 

[surreal1221]

Oh, so you can put words in peoples' mouths, but it kinda stings when somebody else does the same thing, huh?

Live with it.

Live with what? Where the hell did I put any words into anyone's mouth?

I never put any words into your mouth. I only stated what appeared to me to be the behavior of someone who is content with their position in aviation, raining down and telling others to essentially deal with it or get out.

Sorry I called you out on it. That's how it appeared to me. I certainly don't feel like I put words into your's, or anyone else's mouth.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Live with what? Where the hell did I put any words into anyone's mouth?

Wow Lloyd. Certainly started taking a turn towards the "This career is just fine to me, so it should be just fine to you as well...quit asking for more."

Alright . . .

I only stated what appeared to me to be the behavior of someone who is content with their position in aviation, raining down and telling others to essentially deal with it or get out.

Content with my position? I want to advance like everyone else. What are you talking about? Nobody is raining down on anybody. What I'm saying is that if it's so miserable, move along and make room for others.

Sorry I called you out on it.

No need to apologize . . . you can try calling all you want. Doesn't hurt my feelings.

 

[derg]

Holy cow, three days and still the same circular argument! Shocking!

Just...one...more..reply... almost...got...him!

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Holy cow, three days and still the same circular argument! Shocking!

Just...one...more..reply... almost...got...him!

OMG...Doug, stop making sense on your own website!!!

 

[tonyw]

There's nothing wrong with that. However, you'd be much happier staying OUT of the flying industry.

I do any job for the money, Lloyd. If I won the lottery tomorrow, no matter what job I had, I'd give my two weeks and buy two houses, one in La Jolla and one in Breckenridge. I'd spend my time going between the two depending on the season.

Any job to me is going to be a means to an end. I do it so I can make money.

I'm not going to change the world so I'm just going to have as much fun as I can during my time on it. And that means my job, regardless of what it is, is merely a method of getting cashola.

Unless the Capitals want to sign a never was to a big fat contract. Then I'd have my dream job...playing for a living! But since I don't have the skills required, that ain't gonna happen.

And now I have to drag my hungover ass to work. Gonna be a fun day!