Whats to shoot for anymore?

Here's something to ponder.

The 5 year CA's at my company make between $70,000 and $80,000/year. They generally have 14 or more days off per month (low end), and have 3 weeks minimum vacation. I had 10 days of vacation and ended up with 4 weeks of time off in a row...so think what they can do with 21 days of vacation...

A "normal" job (note - I said "normal", of course there will be exceptions worldwide) would have you work M-F, 9-5. With commuting, traffic, getting ready for work, etc. you're home to enjoy maybe 4 hours a day on the workdays before going to sleep at night if you want to be well rested. So outside of 4 hours/day, you're "off" 2 days a week or 8-9 days a month.

A pilot would have approximately 72 more actual days off per year just in their schedule alone. That's two and half months worth of time off additional per year over the "normal job" person. Pretty sweet trade off if you ask me, when you look at what is needed to get to that position these days (not a lot of time and effort).
 
Doug Taylor said:
Holy cow, three days and still the same circular argument! Shocking! :)

Just...one...more..reply... almost...got...him! :sarcasm:
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Not to drag you into this, but this is your website so. . .:)

I wouldn't call it an argument. Just, obviously, a difficult subject to talk about on an interweb fourem,

Maybe I'll be able to more elequently express my opinion of what is sometimes said on JC over a few brews. :crazy:
 
wheelsup said:
Here's something to ponder.

The 5 year CA's at my company make between $70,000 and $80,000/year. They generally have 14 or more days off per month (low end), and have 3 weeks minimum vacation. I had 10 days of vacation and ended up with 4 weeks of time off in a row...so think what they can do with 21 days of vacation...

A "normal" job (note - I said "normal", of course there will be exceptions worldwide) would have you work M-F, 9-5. With commuting, traffic, getting ready for work, etc. you're home to enjoy maybe 4 hours a day on the workdays before going to sleep at night if you want to be well rested. So outside of 4 hours/day, you're "off" 2 days a week or 8-9 days a month.

A pilot would have approximately 72 more actual days off per year just in their schedule alone. That's two and half months worth of time off additional per year over the "normal job" person. Pretty sweet trade off if you ask me, when you look at what is needed to get to that position these days (not a lot of time and effort).
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I have thought of the exact same thing when see guys complaining.

Its going to take some hard work to get there but in the end you will. Its called working your way up, you have to do it at most other jobs. Being a instructor doesnt count either.

I think the problem is pilots think they are owed something when they get in to the industry.
 
Airdale said:
And I'm not affraid to say how much money I make at Colgan. Last month my take home pay was $1,060.
Understand?
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:( how do you do it? I dont understand how anyone could make it with that kind of pay. Let me guess you dont have to pay student loans yet or you have a significant other? Either way good job, man.

My student loans-about 600/month, if I had to pay for rent-at least 400(proly more)/month. I doubt anyone could eat on 60 bucks a months. Thanks for the post though, your airline WILL NEVER SEE MY RESUME.
 
dbrault17 said:
:( how do you do it? I dont understand how anyone could make it with that kind of pay. Let me guess you dont have to pay student loans yet or you have a significant other? Either way good job, man.

My student loans-about 600/month, if I had to pay for rent-at least 400(proly more)/month. I doubt anyone could eat on 60 bucks a months. Thanks for the post though, your airline WILL NEVER SEE MY RESUME.
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I know some people who have outrageous student loans and are regional FOs. How do they make ends meet? That's the $64,000 question...
 
Champcar said:
I have thought of the exact same thing when see guys complaining.

Its going to take some hard work to get there but in the end you will. Its called working your way up, you have to do it at most other jobs. Being a instructor doesnt count either.

I think the problem is pilots think they are owed something when they get in to the industry.
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Maybe, but when Congress asked Glen Tilton if he felt it was appropriate to take a multi million dollar bonus after being with UA for a very short period, while people who had retired from the company were losing just about everything after decades of service, he replied it was reasonable, simply because it was in his contract.

Had he served his country as many of the employees of United had in their respective lives, or had he come to United with some altruistic goal of saving an iconic American company? No, he came because they offered him a great deal, and he, right or wrong, seems to have gone through life with the attitude he is "owed" or deserves it, rather than others, who also had contracts, no apologies. Maybe he does, but I think pilots have a rare and valuable skill many do not have, and as professionals do not need to make excuses for wanting more for that skill, for maximizing the value of that skill for themselves and their families and colleagues.

I don't know the numbers but I heard once there are less than 1% of the U.S. population that even holds a student pilots license. I don't know how accurate that is however I am sure the number is far less for ATPs, or even just CMELs. You deserve what you believe you are worth and what you negotiate in business-no apologies. If you think it is good now, why not get more? Business executives who are paid to run a company think nothing of the feeling of deserving more salary and bonuses even when the company is failing. All the pilots who have been taking huge cuts, have they bent any airplanes during this time? Killed anybody?

I think pilots are worth a great deal more than what they are paid, individual pilots make executive decisions over multi million dollar equipment and potentially 400+ customers lives daily. It is a proud profession, not deserving of the beating it gets from the public and management, who is predisposed to get what they feel they deserve, why not pilots.
 
Cazadores said:
Business executives who are paid to run a company think nothing of the feeling of deserving more salary and bonuses even when the company is failing.
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Some, yes. But not all - be careful with blanket statements.

The President/CEO of my last company not only took a pay cut, but everyone who reported to him directly took a pay cut as well for several years when times were lean.

The CEO of my current firm was on CNN not too long ago, testifying before Congress about executive compensation. In essence, he said that compensation should be tied to performance of the company, period. If the company isn't doing well, then neither should its leadership.

I agree with this sentiment.
 
killbilly said:
Some, yes. But not all - be careful with blanket statements.

The President/CEO of my last company not only took a pay cut, but everyone who reported to him directly took a pay cut as well for several years when times were lean.

The CEO of my current firm was on CNN not too long ago, testifying before Congress about executive compensation. In essence, he said that compensation should be tied to performance of the company, period. If the company isn't doing well, then neither should its leadership.

I agree with this sentiment.
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Fair enough, my statement should have included "many", and his testimony obviously runs in agreement with my beliefs on this subject. Not all MBAs are conferred with a "me first" attitude, and not all ATPs are automatically certified as heros....:)

Despite my occasional irrational belief to the contrary....
 
Cazadores said:
Maybe, but when Congress asked Glen Tilton if he felt it was appropriate to take a multi million dollar bonus after being with UA for a very short period, while people who had retired from the company were losing just about everything after decades of service, he replied it was reasonable, simply because it was in his contract.

Had he served his country as many of the employees of United had in their respective lives, or had he come to United with some altruistic goal of saving an iconic American company? No, he came because they offered him a great deal, and he, right or wrong, seems to have gone through life with the attitude he is "owed" or deserves it, rather than others, who also had contracts, no apologies. Maybe he does, but I think pilots have a rare and valuable skill many do not have, and as professionals do not need to make excuses for wanting more for that skill, for maximizing the value of that skill for themselves and their families and colleagues.

I don't know the numbers but I heard once there are less than 1% of the U.S. population that even holds a student pilots license. I don't know how accurate that is however I am sure the number is far less for ATPs, or even just CMELs. You deserve what you believe you are worth and what you negotiate in business-no apologies. If you think it is good now, why not get more? Business executives who are paid to run a company think nothing of the feeling of deserving more salary and bonuses even when the company is failing. All the pilots who have been taking huge cuts, have they bent any airplanes during this time? Killed anybody?

I think pilots are worth a great deal more than what they are paid, individual pilots make executive decisions over multi million dollar equipment and potentially 400+ customers lives daily. It is a proud profession, not deserving of the beating it gets from the public and management, who is predisposed to get what they feel they deserve, why not pilots.
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Where the heck did you come from dude!?

That is an awesome post right there...very well put. :)
 
Airdale said:
Where the heck did you come from dude!?

That is an awesome post right there...very well put. :)
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Couldn't agree more.

Yet, we still have a growing number of pilots not in agreement on that subject. Which, in turn, develops problems within the group. Leading management to sit back and laugh and point.
 
Airdale said:
While waiting to catch a flight home last week, I was talking with an American Airlines FO on the A300. I was in uniform and we got to chatting in the terminal and he specifically asked me - What is the reason to make a career in this industry anymore?

Before I could answer he explained in very thorough heated detail about how the industry was and how it is now. He mentioned that when American pilots had their contracts thrown out and their pay slashed, that he was forced to sell a house he owned in NJ and downsize, while his management was taking million dollar bonuses. He was VERY disgruntled and down right pissed off at American Airlines, and to be honest I listened to his story and I felt bad for him. He couldn't believe the fact that I make $20k a year and he mentioned how this industry is self destructing with pilots at the lower end willing to work for $18k a year.

After our conversation I was really thinking about what he said and I asked myself - what is at the end of the tunnel to keep driving for? Is it flying a wide bodied aircraft, like the A300 with 267 pax for less then $90k a year? Less then $100k a year? And for how long would that pay stick around? What about retirement? After I give my service to a company for 20 yrs, will I have to worry about when I retire? What happens if management slices pay again?

He told me that next year is going to be a blood bath in the airlines when many contracts come up for negotiation.

What will it take to bring back the glory of this job? What do we have to do to get proper compensation for the responsibility that we undertake?

I didn't realize how bad things were getting until talking first hand with those guys flying the big boys.

One things for sure though, we all need to stand together if things are going to change. I may be very new to the Airline industry, but I believe that its never to early to stand behind the Major Airline pilots to help fight for our future.
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The glory days you refer to ended when the airlines were de-regulated. Prior to that, the Civil Aeronautics Board controlled all fare increases, which meant that the airlines did not have much to worry about in the way of price competition. When you don't have to worry about pricing and competition, there is little incentive to keep costs in line, which allowed for those high salaries and low productivity work rules that made those days "glorious."

Will the glory days ever return? I doubt it. The only possibility of that happening would be if the airlines were re-regulated and price competition was removed. Even if that were to happen, it took 30 years to get to this point, so I am guessing that it would take 30 years to return to the "glory days." You're career would likely be concluding at that point.

That doesn't mean that you can't have a fulfilling career. You will just have to adjust your expectations. Even today, a pilot career is still financially rewarding. And it will get better. But if you are looking for a dramatic change in the fortunes of the profession, don't hold your breath.
 
skydog said:
The glory days you refer to ended when the airlines were de-regulated. Prior to that, the Civil Aeronautics Board controlled all fare increases, which meant that the airlines did not have much to worry about in the way of price competition. When you don't have to worry about pricing and competition, there is little incentive to keep costs in line, which allowed for those high salaries and low productivity work rules that made those days "glorious."

Will the glory days ever return? I doubt it. The only possibility of that happening would be if the airlines were re-regulated and price competition was removed. Even if that were to happen, it took 30 years to get to this point, so I am guessing that it would take 30 years to return to the "glory days." You're career would likely be concluding at that point.

That doesn't mean that you can't have a fulfilling career. You will just have to adjust your expectations. Even today, a pilot career is still financially rewarding. And it will get better. But if you are looking for a dramatic change in the fortunes of the profession, don't hold your breath.
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:yeahthat:


It ain't ever going to go back to the way it was, folks!

The info is out there, there are no excuses for being ill-informed IMHO...

It still beats any other job I've ever had...



Kevin
 
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