Whats to shoot for anymore?

mtsu_av8er said:
Some of us really get excited every single time we climb into an airplane.
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Some of us damn near crash our cars into an onramp wall yesterday at 8:45pm just watching a large airplane plane land on the drive home from the airport. :eek:

Chalk up another on the "JC members who like their flying jobs" list. :)
 
I agree very much that the glory is gone. But is that why we fly? Is it the money? the prestige? the travel? The chance to be important? Now I would venture to say that I am new to aviation and definitely new to the politics of Airline jobs. Right now every legacy airline is top heavy and the those that do the least are getting the most pay. Who ever said ALPA is missing the boat is right. ALPA is not consistent and different reps for different airlines care about different things. I cant speak for anyone else but i fly because its fun. I am not a fan of 121 anything. As long as Iam flying I am ok. I pity those that are burned out. But I understand. I say get out and get a life that makes you happy. I know quite a few guys that give up the marraige and house and miss out on being a parent because they want to love an airline that will own them but never love them back. My cousins turned out like that. All flew for US air all got the boot
The question is how do we change this
 
Nick said:
Some of us damn near crash our cars into an onramp wall yesterday at 8:45pm just watching a large airplane plane land on the drive home from the airport. :eek:

Chalk up another on the "JC members who like their flying jobs" list. :)
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I'm getting into this because I LOVE airplanes.

[weak example]

I took the job I have now to be around airplanes and the GA community, sure I could get a better paying job but not enjoy it. I enjoy my job because of the people and things I'm around. Is it worth it? I think so.
 
n57,

I am also a line tech, and worked GA for about 1.5 years and now am over on the airline side of the field. I left a good insurance job for the very reasons you mentioned, I love aircraft as well and love being in that community. The funny thing is that I have given many flight crews a ride to the hotel from NetJets, Flight Options, Flex Jet etc... They all have the same complaints and gripes about many of the topics that were mentioned in this thread. I would just drive and listen to them argue about this and that and how crappy the crew meal was and just think to myself and my dinner from the "wheel of death". I had a good morning today, took the 150 for a morning jaunt and loved every minute of it! You guys brought in the Citiation X from Palm Beach and have not one positive thing to say about it. I am not in their position so I cannot say how good or bad it might be, to me on the outside that should be glamourous in itself, but on the inside it may be totally different.

I dunno, fueling a BeechJet trunk at 5am in mid January with a -25 windchill is not too exciting either, especially for 9.50 an hour, but for some reason we do it, love it and hate it all at the same time. There are no unions at the line guy level so I am not even sure we would know what to do with actual work rules and a contract. Back in the day I was a ramper for TWA and we were union which really made no difference to me at the time because most of those dudes were ex-Ozark rampers with gobs of seniority, so I was still at the bottom!

I guess that my point is that if you love it and have the ability to fight for it, go for it! Still for some unknown reason when I see a Midwest 717 rotate on time knowing that my fuel is onboard, there is a personal satisfaction that I find. My employer does not give that to me, my check surely does not give that to me, dragging a frozen fuel hoze around does not give that to me, for me that is something that only aviation can give to me! I completely understand the QOL issues that all bring up on here, I have a wife, mortgage, student loans and the usual other stuff to pay for every month too. But, we make it work... (I have no clue how sometimes!!)
 
The fact that when you get up in the morning you know that your job is going to be different than when you got up three days ago. This business is cut throat. There is no other way to put it. Like my man Biggie Smalls said it best,"When you on top, Mother F'ers try to bring you down." Every and I mean every airline wants to be number 1. Yes all pilots need to get on the same page, but there are to many "me,me,me,me" people in this indusrty and not enough, "we,we,we,we" people.
 
omajeta said:
n57,

I am also a line tech, and worked GA for about 1.5 years and now am over on the airline side of the field. I left a good insurance job for the very reasons you mentioned, I love aircraft as well and love being in that community. The funny thing is that I have given many flight crews a ride to the hotel from NetJets, Flight Options, Flex Jet etc... They all have the same complaints and gripes about many of the topics that were mentioned in this thread. I would just drive and listen to them argue about this and that and how crappy the crew meal was and just think to myself and my dinner from the "wheel of death". I had a good morning today, took the 150 for a morning jaunt and loved every minute of it! You guys brought in the Citiation X from Palm Beach and have not one positive thing to say about it. I am not in their position so I cannot say how good or bad it might be, to me on the outside that should be glamourous in itself, but on the inside it may be totally different.

I dunno, fueling a BeechJet trunk at 5am in mid January with a -25 windchill is not too exciting either, especially for 9.50 an hour, but for some reason we do it, love it and hate it all at the same time. There are no unions at the line guy level so I am not even sure we would know what to do with actual work rules and a contract. Back in the day I was a ramper for TWA and we were union which really made no difference to me at the time because most of those dudes were ex-Ozark rampers with gobs of seniority, so I was still at the bottom!

I guess that my point is that if you love it and have the ability to fight for it, go for it! Still for some unknown reason when I see a Midwest 717 rotate on time knowing that my fuel is onboard, there is a personal satisfaction that I find. My employer does not give that to me, my check surely does not give that to me, dragging a frozen fuel hoze around does not give that to me, for me that is something that only aviation can give to me! I completely understand the QOL issues that all bring up on here, I have a wife, mortgage, student loans and the usual other stuff to pay for every month too. But, we make it work... (I have no clue how sometimes!!)
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I agree exactly with that!

I am at a very small airport that hardly has any jet activity, but I talk to airline pilots who shoot the breeze in the office. Just yesterday, I had one tell me he didn't regret a day of it.

I get some pretty cool opertunities, like yesterday my frined just says, wanna go up? Hes is working on his commercial license and took me up on a night flight. I was awsome! I learned alot to about VFR navigation that i never had knew before. Things like that are why I took the job in the first place. He even told me once he gets his CFI, I pay fuel and get free dual! I may not get to check out jets and turboprops with nice avionics and stuff, but I'm not concerned with that at the moment. I get a discount to which helps on aircraft rental.

Every plane I see pull up to the fuel pump I always ask "How can I help you?" I do it because I enjoy helping people and making their day a little better. Maybe one day when someone says hows my airport to his buddy, he might say great, nice people there. The FBO gets business and I get satisfaction that I did my job to my expectation. We had an issue where an airplane couldn't be found at all and I made a couple of phone calls and found it had landed safely at its destination with in a few minutes after I got a call. I let my boss know that I was able to locate it, and convently the township manager was there and a couple other people. I was happy to provide coustemer service and make the airport look good in front of people who take it with a grain of salt (airport is going through a shakeup and lineguys have been slacking).

I know what you mean to when you see a plane take off and you fueld it. I love that feeling!
 
mtsu_av8er said:
Maybe some of us actually LOVE flying airplanes? Some of us really get excited every single time we climb into an airplane.

So, you say it's about the money (and you're not even flying for a living yet), but it's sad that I am completely in love with what I do for a living (and have been doing for several years)?

Please explain - I really want to understand!
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Nothing to explain, I never said it was sad for you to love what you're doing.
 
surreal1221 said:
Nothing to explain, I never said it was sad for you to love what you're doing.

So, well, you can retract that statement.
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Without an explanation.

Of course, that's the way it works.

You can't just tell people that what they believe is "sad" (your words) without explaining why, or defending your own beliefs.
 
n57,

I dont want to try to hijack this thread with our line guy shop talk, but I do like your enthusiasm and passion for service. Our FBO is a busy one indeed and we hadle allot of corporate traffic. You name it, we get it. We also have the military fuel contract for the airport so we get allot of military trainers in as well. It is tough, there is allot of negativity in this field. It does not matter if you are a pilot or a fueler it seems to effect us all. Surreal put it well with the me, me, me attitudes. I definately agree there should be some we in there somewhere.
 
Hey there. I've been lurking for quite a time now, this topic really interests me.

I am a high school senior. I'm going to either Tulane, Lewis, or Riddle in the Fall of '08 and that's final. I'm gonna enter into a Aviation Business/Business program. I used to want to fly for a career. However (honestly), since I discovered JC and seen some of the negativity towards airlines, I have since abandoned trying to pursue that, unfortunately.

I decided I'd rather try to go to the dark side and work with management. I figure I could do a reasonable job and not screw other people in the process. Reading these message boards is sometimes kinda sad. I see a lot of complaining. I don't know if that's joking around or serious.

I know I don't mean much around here, or participate that often, but I believe news about airlines always fighting with their pilots and mechanics is deterring a lot of people my age from piquing their interest in flying.

This may seem supererogatory, but I think I might be one of the few kids that came to JC, asking questions like "Is it worth it?" before they made a slight commitment to pursuing a career in aviation -- seeing the "dangers" in it before it might be too late.

Feel me?
 
Management is where it's at for some people........ Start off around $60k with a nice annual raise. Still get the travel bennies. Get holidays off.

Not bad if you're a family guy.
 
I only read the first post, so forgive me. I wanted to answer Airdale's question.

What is the end of the tunnel? There isn't one. That isn't the point. It's the ride along the way. You don't take a road trip across the country because it's an easy way to get from point A to point B. You take it because of the people you meet along the way, the sights you see, the places you visit, and the bumps along the road that make it fun.

Everyone is worried about this "end goal." I say find a job that makes you happy, and enjoy it. You need goals along the way, and dreams are even more important. But always worrying about retirement and the "end" will just make each and every day drag on and be miserable, just like they are for that American Airlines A300 FO you met. Next thing you know, you are at the "end," and you missed out on many good times along the way if you would have just put the car in park for a while.
 
FlyChicaga said:
Everyone is worried about this "end goal." I say find a job that makes you happy, and enjoy it. You need goals along the way, and dreams are even more important. But always worrying about retirement and the "end" will just make each and every day drag on and be miserable, just like they are for that American Airlines A300 FO you met. Next thing you know, you are at the "end," and you missed out on many good times along the way if you would have just put the car in park for a while.
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:yeahthat:
 
C150J said:
I feel the pain, believe me. However, I see and hear similar stories worldwide across MANY industries. This is not exclusive of the airlines by any means. I have friends in the computer graphics industry that are being undercut by bottom-feeding graphics houses daily (there are plenty of young people that would work on a DreamWorks film for free).

I'm definitely not trying to dismiss what the AA pilot said, but you have to see that this plot line is happening in just about every industry.You need to find intrinsic motivation in any career to make it worth something.

I think it's important that we stick together as pilots and educate those coming into the industry - just not to the point where we're crapping in their cereal.
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I agree with you, finding intrinsic motivation is vital your life, remember why you wanted to fly, turn the extrinsic motivation to intrinsic motivation, be the guy who takes 10 years to re-build a 69 Mustang, do it because you love it. You can find anyone, in any industry that will give you doubts and worries. While the industry has had it’s share of problems, there are as many stories of success.

My mother in-law works for JetBlue Airways, (True Blue Department) and every year they have a party, at one of the centers here in SLC. I have met and spoken to several FO’s and CA, who would not trade what there doing for anything.
 
Great Lakes - Be1900 (19 seat turboprop):
1 year FO: $15/hr
Mesaba - SF-340 (34 seat turboprop):
3 year FO: $31/hr
ExpressJet ERJ-145 (50 seat jet):
3 year FO: $34/hr

Regional Captain:**

Mesaba SF-340:
5 year CA: $50/hr
Horizon Q400 (74 seat turboprop):
8 year CA: $81/hr
Skywest CRJ-700 (70 seat jet):
6 year CA: $65/hr
Mesa CRJ-900 (90 seat jet):
6 year CA: $69/hr

**75-76 hr/mo minimum guarantee - per diem not included.

Low Cost Carriers:+
Airtran B737
2 year FO: $56/hr
5 year CA: $120/hr

jetBlue A320
2 year FO: $56/hr
5 year CA: $121/hr

+ 70 hr/mo min guarantee - per diem not included.

Legacy Carriers: ++

American MD80
8 year FO: $97/hr
16 year CA: $154/hr

American B777
12 year FO: $133/hr
12 year CA: $196/hr

Northwest A320
8 year FO: $86/hr
12 year CA: $137/hr

United B737
6 year FO: $79/hr
10 year CA: $126/hr

++ 64-65 hr/mo min guarantee. Payscales top out at 12 years. NWA rates reflect Nov 14 interim agreement including new 24% cut.

Freight Carriers:

FedEx B727 - 74 hr/mo min guarantee.
5 year FO: $104/hr
8 year CA: $168/hr

Kitty Hawk B727 - 43 hr/mo min guarantee
5 year FO: $89/hr
8 year CA: $133/hr

UPS - All aircraft types - 81 hr/mo min guarantee
5 year FO: $97/hr
10 year CA: $184/hr

Corporate/Fractional Operations:

FlightOptions Midsize Jet
3 year FO: $4333/mo salaried
7 year CA: $6126/mo salaried

NetJets - All Types
3 year FO: $2470/mo salaried
7 year CA: $5630/mo salaried

Intel Corporation Flight Department
4 yr FO: $51,000/yr salaried
 
mtsu_av8er said:
So, it raises an eyebrow when somebody says, "I really love getting up and going to work in the morning. I love what I do, and I do enjoy it. I like being paid well, but I don't do it for the money".
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I was with you until the last sentence. I do it for the money. I like my job, LOVE the people I work with -- one in particular more than others, right Pamela :D -- and enjoy it.

But I do it for the money. If I won the lottery, I'd give them my two weeks notice and be gone.

That's what work is for me -- a means to an end. And that means I do it for the money.

Yes, I am a ##### who does it for the money but I'd rather be a ##### than a #### who does it for free!

Seriously, I hope you folks fighting for better wages and better working conditions succeed. If you want folks like me and clumpinglitter to join you folks on the front lines, that's what it's going to take.

It's one thing if you've done nothing but fly and work to get more hours to get the next flying job.

It's another if you're in a good spot and you need to be given an offer you can't refuse, not an offer you can't accept.
 
Nick said:
Some of us damn near crash our cars into an onramp wall yesterday at 8:45pm just watching a large airplane plane land on the drive home from the airport. :eek:

Chalk up another on the "JC members who like their flying jobs" list. :)
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Been there done that circa 2004. When Southwest had just begun to put winglets on their 700's.

I-10 with westerly operations in affect, more especially the rare 25L departures, were always a possible perfect storm of either totalling my car or dying at 65-70 miles per hour!

But man, did thoses 737's look sweet with their new winglets.

It was all worth it!
 
Seggy said:
Nice job looking at it from managements standpoint.

From a major airline pilots (which a lot of us aspire to be) standpoint fee-for-departure is a horrible business practice. Takes money out of your pocket and gives it to underachieving outsourcing companies.

Hopefully the bean counters say, "geez we are giving money away for piss poor service, that is actually costing us mucho bucks long term. We should change this."
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But if you cannot look at it from management's standpoint you will NEVER understand why things are done the way they are done and thus you will NEVER be able to change them.

For major airline pilots all kinds of things airlines do are a "horrible business practice" and if you only look at them from a pilots point of view you're going to be really confused when the company keeps doing them, because from the companies point of view they're a fine business practice. You're not going to get the company to change what they consider a brilliant piece of management strategy by coming at it head on - you've got to find a compromise or a trade-off.

Your assumption is that "bean counters" haven't looked at the service/revenue tradeoff - and I can assure you they have. Guess what, the flying public doesn't care, they want cheap. They complain about service, but they keep booking the cheapest freaking fare they can find.

Anyway - even if airlines were able to earn more money and make more profit, what in the name of all that's holy makes you think they'd give more of that money to the pilots?
 
CFIse said:
Your assumption is that "bean counters" haven't looked at the service/revenue tradeoff - and I can assure you they have. Guess what, the flying public doesn't care, they want cheap. They complain about service, but they keep booking the cheapest freaking fare they can find.

Anyway - even if airlines were able to earn more money and make more profit, what in the name of all that's holy makes you think they'd give more of that money to the pilots?
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There are plenty of companies out there in all sorts of businesses who have discovered that the Wal-Mart model sucks and the Nordstrom model is the way to go.

If I were in charge of an airline, I'd jack up fares, add FAs to flights, bring back free meals and toss in a couple of free cocktails.

I'd rebrand my airline so it's NOT just another low low fares airline and charge a premium for it.

There's a reason you pay $800 for a Coach purse which is pretty much the same thing as you get at Wal-Mart for $20.

If some airline exec figures this out and has the balls to execute a plan to rebrand his airline like this, they're going to be in good shape.

United's got a bunch of PS flights which they charge more for but the planes are full.

What does that tell you?

There is a market for this, and if some airline rolls out a PS type business model instead of the cram 'em in, treat 'em like crap, but give 'em low fares business model, they're going to make some money.

But nobody's got the balls to do it.

This would, of course, be good for employees as well. Why? If you want employees to provide a higher level of service, you need to treat them well and compensate them well.

Which airline's going to be the one who does it and distinguishes itself in a commodity industry?
 
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