Whats to shoot for anymore?

[surreal1221]

To be honest, what is there to be so excited about? Especially when every company out there, their CEOs and management types are bringing in significant money while keeping the actual employees down in the dumps.

Besides waking up alive every morning?

So yes, it's about the money.

 

[Seggy]

Ah yes, because 4%-6% profit is better than 10%.

That's some crazy math! Good thing you're a pilot and not a bean counter !

With the fee for departure crap you are limited to how you grow. With this other methodology of pricing, you really have no limits, if the PAX are willing to pay, more money, thus more profits.

We can't stop looking in the past to see how things were done, but have to look at the future and work to make this industry better.

Can you describe a credible environment in which either airline management rewards pilots with increased QOL and compensation, or the unions are able to force management to provide increased QOL or compensation?

I know why I think there won't be significant increases for pilots going forward, but other than "I'd like it to be better" do you know why you think it will get significantly better?

ExpressJet, FEDEX, UPS, and Southwest were able to negotiate management into better positions for the pilots.

There could be hundred of scenarios on why it will be better for pilots. Simple one would be supply and demand. Wait till the first regional offers a pay increase concerning first year pay and see how the others follow suit.

We need less candy a$$es who take what management gives them and guys with balls who will stand up to management and demand compensation for their pilot groups.

 

[CapnJim]

A lot of guys on here read like a kid sitting on one muddy bank of the Mississippi delta and traying to describe the whole damn river. Gang, think about this: When I'm in a bar on an overnight, and some girl asks me what I do for a living, I tell her I'm a friggin' steamboat captain. Yeah, it makes me and the guy I'm flying with laugh, but there's a reason I say that: Because I am. Buggywhips, my friend. You know what the steamboat captains all did when the train and the truck took all their glory and salary away, and their ranks became filled with costume-wearing hacks who paddled tourists up and down the river on callioped floating casinos? They quietly scraped together as much money as could be had, and they left.

So, steamboat captains, lets get while the getting's good. There's always going to be flying. If that's not what it's all about, then there's no point. It's always been about the flying. Always will. The ones on here that aren't hip to that can move on. Very soon, there won't be enough room for you anyway.

I, for one, am ready to fight to the death.

 

[Champcar]

That American pilot most likely came from the military and didnt spend a day in GA nor did he pay for any of his flight training.

Now think about someone who will be making a loan payment for the next 20 years. They will be happy being paid to fly no matter how little it is.

 

[wheelsup]

With the fee for departure crap you are limited to how you grow. With this other methodology of pricing, you really have no limits, if the PAX are willing to pay, more money, thus more profits.

Good God man, you need to put that shovel down !

"If the pax are willing to pay"

What about that statement do you find ironic in this day and age? Don't you find that outlook a tad rosy?

Furthermore, do you think ExpressJet can produce DOUBLE the profit margin of the best run domestic passenger airline can flying aircraft with triple the operating costs with 1/3 the seat capacity?

Please say no. If you do believe that, you're way too stubborn for your own good .

Anyway, we're getting off topic. I await the next regional carrier to leapfrog our contract. Unfortunately, it's not looking so hot.

 

[Seggy]

Good God man, you need to put that shovel down !

"If the pax are willing to pay"

What about that statement do you find ironic in this day and age? Don't you find that outlook a tad rosy?

Furthermore, do you think ExpressJet can produce DOUBLE the profit margin of the best run domestic passenger airline can flying aircraft with triple the operating costs with 1/3 the seat capacity?

Please say no. If you do believe that, you're way too stubborn for your own good .

Anyway, we're getting off topic. I await the next regional carrier to leapfrog our contract. Unfortunately, it's not looking so hot.

First you are assuming a lot in your rational that ExpressJet is just in LAX to be there and to find homes for their airplanes and they are doing it at cost.

If I said twenty five years ago who would have thought that the airline serving HOU, SAT, and LUV would be the best run domestic airline today, you would have looked at me like I had three heads.

YOU NEVER KNOW. The past is the past, look at the future.

We need to stop undercutting each other and work together for better pay, QOL, and overall compensation in this industry.

 

[wheelsup]

First you are assuming a lot in your rational that ExpressJet is just in LAX to be there and to find homes for their airplanes and they are doing it at cost.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm just stating the terms of the contract. I have no idea at what rate they are charging Delta, nor does anyone. But it's very coincidental.

YOU NEVER KNOW. The past is the past, look at the future.

Hold on, lemme grab my magic 8 ball.

We need to stop undercutting each other and work together for better pay, QOL, and overall compensation in this industry.

That's a pretty noble thing to say, how's about we start with Pinnacles' contract since they are undergoing negotiations now, while the current proposal is 20% below my contract on the FO side (no idea what CA's are at). And ASA's, who can't get released after almost 5 YEARS of contract talks and 3 attempts to strike.

I'm not against fighting, I'm against fighting for a futile cause.

 

[Seggy]

Hold on, lemme grab my magic 8 ball.

When I arrived at Colgan twenty months ago, EWR was a place you overflew repoing from HEF to ALB, the Senator said on the first day of class, "I will never sell this airline again," and Bombardier was just another Canadian company to us.

A lot can change quickly.

Did people in your company EVER think they would be based in PHL?

 

[Airdale]

Time for pilots to grow some balls. There is a shortage at regionals. Time to tell management like it is and tell them to cut the BS and give us what we deserve.

Exactly!!

Lloyd,

I'm not complaining and crying and wanting to get out of the industry. I have a positive attitude that we can make a difference. Its definitely not the candy store you think it is on the outside looking in. Its a rough industry and it's down right WORK.

That being said, this is the career field I chose, this is the career field I will stay in. But rather then sit back and take punches in the nuts by "The Man", I'm going to take an active role and fight right alongside my fellow pilots to make things better. Thats my whole point. The Majors aren't what they used to be, and unless us guys at the junior level start growing a pair and standing behind the nationwide push to improve the industry, then our future at the Majors will continue to spiral down the pooper.

 

[CapnJim]

That American pilot most likely came from the military and didnt spend a day in GA nor did he pay for any of his flight training.

Now think about someone who will be making a loan payment for the next 20 years. They will be happy being paid to fly no matter how little it is.

You want to make money in aviation? Open a flight school.

(p.s., good post champcar.)

 

[Airdale]

Seriously though.

If it sucks because of work rules and pay rates, but people are still willing to plop down massive amonts of money to fly at a regional for an entire career, you've just told the powers that be that it can't be all that bad.

Mesa has a massive staffing problem because of attrition and if the pilots play their cards right and the regional industry comes together and collectively aims to improve working conditions, it'll improve tremendously.

But if the infighting continues, the "please give me those shiney, beautiful jets and I'll fly them for low low rates!" and we continue to supply the airlines with labor, it'll continue the downward spiral.

Seggy is helping improve things at Colgan, but caught a lot of slack because people think collective bargaining is evil and horrible. Everyone wants to go to Expressjet (who has a union) or Skywest (which is going to change drastically when/if the threat of ALPA goes away) but doesn't seem to recognize the overall struggle which made those two airlines attractive in the first place.

There's got to be a time and a place where some of you guys get off your laurels and decide to make positive changes in the profession and stop letting ourselves get manhandled by the Ornsteins, Mullins and Carty's, and Neelman's of the industry.

Not happy? Get off your ass and volunteer for a union committee. Counsel other pilots. DO SOMETHING. I did and continue to do so.

But if we all sit back and bitch in the food court with an iPod in hand and a printed internet forum thread in the other, yes, this profession will continue to suck.

WHATCHOOGONNADOABOUTIT?

Large swaths of the industry suck because the answer is usually "Nothing. I'll just bitch about my profession, barely pay my student loans and hope and pray I find one of the few 'safe havens' to run to whenever they consider my resume. You know, Rome is ablaze but I hear it's not so bad in Carthage... I think I'll be safe there".

Awesome post Doug!!

So what if the first boots on "Omaha" beach thought that "Holy cow! The artillery and bombardment didn't work! What's the point of fighting?"

We have a unique opportunity today and tomorrow to improve the profession with lessons from yesterday.

I think it's worth fighting for. If it wasn't, I sure in hell would be feverishly working on a career exit strategy.

We might not win, but you know, we need to give 'em hell anyway.

Damn straight!!


Look...I didn't make this post to whine and complain about the industry. I was sharing a conversation I had with this pilot. In no way did I walk away from the conversation saying " Oh boy...I need to find another career. "

Hell no!! I walked away thinking to myself, "Wow...now is the time to for pilots to unite and push to change the industry for our own future."

After talking to this pilot, I was driven even more towards ALPA, and honestly I can not wait to vote! Seggy and all of the guys on the organizing committee stood up and took a stand to make things better. And guess what!?! It WILL because ALPA is going to get voted in.

If a small group of guys can unite a pilot group, just think what can happen when pilot groups across the NATION, hell even the WORLD, join together.

I'm not going to sit here and watch the pilots across the boards get smacked and kicked in the nuts. I'm going to join Seggy, and my fellow pilots and make a stand right alongside the other.

I think one of the most important things we can do, is to educate those at the Student/CFI level that it is NOT okay to fly commercial aircraft for next to NOTHING. Its not RIGHT and needs to CHANGE.

You can bet I will be a part of ALPA once they come on property.

 

[Chris_Ford]

Thinking at risk flying is better than fee per departure is foolish at best. Fee for departure is guaranteed revenue and it's 100% foolish to assume risk.

If I offered you $100,000 a year guaranteed, would you take it?
Now what if I offered you $50,000, but you had to put it in the market. Would you? Maybe some people out there think they can make 100% a year in the market consistently, but I certainly don't. I'd take the sure bet.

Additionally, the at risk flying can be taken away just as easily as fee for departure flying can.

Another factor in the whole thing is that an airline with at risk flying is a lot more volatile to swings in the economy. FPD really provides a buffer to that, where a company won't take as big a hit. How many regionals have declared bankruptcy since 9/11? Mesaba?

 

[mtsu_av8er]

If a small group of guys can unite a pilot group, just think what can happen when pilot groups across the NATION, hell even the WORLD, join together.

I agree with that 100%

Its definitely not the candy store you think it is on the outside looking in. Its a rough industry and it's down right WORK.

Candy store?

When did I say that? How do you figure as much? That was a tad bit accusatory, and for no real reason.

 

[Chris_Ford]

hahahaha "it's down right WORK"

That's cute. Try roofing in Arizona for a summer.


/not that I have, just saying

Edit: Perhaps at Colgan it's work, but I doubt "reading USA today at FL350" was in a lot of people's job descriptions.

 

[Airdale]

Candy store?

When did I say that? How do you figure as much? That was a tad bit accusatory, and for no real reason.

I think you misread that bud. I wasn't implying that you thought it was a candy store, that statement was not in reply to anything you wrote. It was more or less directed at those (like a few new FO's at Colgan) that think flying at a Regional is reading the paper and pushing buttons all the while getting paid a bunch of money. I just wanted you to understand that I wasn't complaining about the industry.


Chris,

I can't speak for other Regionals, but at Colgan, there's no reading the paper. Hell, we don't even have a cup holder. On Sunday the Captain and I had ZERO time to break and even eat lunch, so we ended up swallowing down a couple cheeseburgers as fast as we could as the pax were coming down. It wasn't even in our stomach's until we were at about 12,000. While it may not be physically demanding work, it is tiring working a 13-15hr day.

 

[Seggy]

Thinking at risk flying is better than fee per departure is foolish at best. Fee for departure is guaranteed revenue and it's 100% foolish to assume risk.

If I offered you $100,000 a year guaranteed, would you take it?
Now what if I offered you $50,000, but you had to put it in the market. Would you? Maybe some people out there think they can make 100% a year in the market consistently, but I certainly don't. I'd take the sure bet.

Additionally, the at risk flying can be taken away just as easily as fee for departure flying can.

Another factor in the whole thing is that an airline with at risk flying is a lot more volatile to swings in the economy. FPD really provides a buffer to that, where a company won't take as big a hit. How many regionals have declared bankruptcy since 9/11? Mesaba?

Nice job looking at it from managements standpoint.

From a major airline pilots (which a lot of us aspire to be) standpoint fee-for-departure is a horrible business practice. Takes money out of your pocket and gives it to underachieving outsourcing companies.

Hopefully the bean counters say, "geez we are giving money away for piss poor service, that is actually costing us mucho bucks long term. We should change this."

 

[mtsu_av8er]

I think you misread that bud. I wasn't implying that you thought it was a candy store, that statement was not in reply to anything you wrote.

Yeah, I could have mis-read it. Let's visit it again:

Lloyd,

I'm not complaining and crying and wanting to get out of the industry. I have a positive attitude that we can make a difference. Its definitely not the candy store you think it is on the outside looking in. Its a rough industry and it's down right WORK.

So, I could be wrong. But, when you say things like that after directing the paragraph at me - well, it makes me want to compare the facts and make people feel bad. I don't like doing that anymore, but I have - and I will.

I just wanted you to understand that I wasn't complaining about the industry.

Understood. Just kind of the way it came off.

It's one thing to be willing to fight for the industry. It's another altogether to fight the fight so hard that you hate what you do, and others that DON'T hate what they do.

 

[Chris_Ford]

I can't speak for other Regionals, but at Colgan, there's no reading the paper.

Yeah that's why I said "perhaps at Colgan it's work" but those 145/170/CRJ guys are not pulling their weight in the stick and rudder chapter like you autopilot free guys are

Nice job looking at it from managements standpoint.

If that's management's standpoint, why was XJT management so willing to do this at risk stuff. Methinks the word you were searching for was "pragmatically"

From a major airline pilots (which a lot of us aspire to be) standpoint fee-for-departure is a horrible business practice. Takes money out of your pocket and gives it to underachieving outsourcing companies.

Agree 100%.

Hopefully the bean counters say, "geez we are giving money away for piss poor service, that is actually costing us mucho bucks long term. We should change this."

It is, however, one of the few times where the young guy wasn't thrown under the bus.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

To be honest, what is there to be so excited about?

Maybe some of us actually LOVE flying airplanes? Some of us really get excited every single time we climb into an airplane.

So yes, it's about the money.

So, you say it's about the money (and you're not even flying for a living yet), but it's sad that I am completely in love with what I do for a living (and have been doing for several years)?

Please explain - I really want to understand!

 

[wheelsup]

Nice job looking at it from managements standpoint.

He wasn't, he was looking at it from ExpressJet's view, which was the topic at hand, in regards to their at-risk flying over on the west coast. Nice job changing the subject .

From a major airline pilots (which a lot of us aspire to be) standpoint fee-for-departure is a horrible business practice. Takes money out of your pocket and gives it to underachieving outsourcing companies.

Actually it worked well for the United pilots...they gave away the farm in scope and came out with a 30% pay raise...for a few months at least, then it bit them in the butt.

Hopefully the bean counters say, "geez we are giving money away for piss poor service, that is actually costing us mucho bucks long term. We should change this."

It'll be awhile. SkyWest's contract via ASA is affirmed thru 2020.