Whats to shoot for anymore?

[Murdoughnut]

It seems to be that the majority of major airline pilots I talk to say to stay away from this industry. I know that a lot of folks on here want to dismiss them and call them "pessimists", but there is a point to where you really need to read the writing on the wall. Some things just don't come back.

If you're young and unattached, it's one thing - but it makes me sick when I hear of middle aged folks dropping a career that provides for their family in order to play pilot for a few years. THAT'S why places like Gulfstream exist - because people can rationalize any decision, no matter how foolish it looks on paper.

In the world of globalization, everyone's replaceable. The days of organized labor uniting to enact change are likely over. I hope it happens for you guys, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet against it. Having a job you love and making peanuts for it is one thing when you're 21 - it's a whole different thing when you're married and trying to provide for a family.

 

[wheelsup]

With regard to the ExpressJet flying in LAX, everybody seems to assume that ExpressJet's bid was higher than ASA or the others. Does anybody know this for a fact?

Just because the pilots are paid more and the quality is better, doesn't mean that the overall cost will be greater. There are lots of ways to create operational efficiencies other than cutting pilot pay (and fuel hedging).

First, fix the quote, I didn't say that.

Second, you are right, no one knows what ExpressJet's bid was. Your hypothesis is that they were lower because of operational efficiencies, mine is based more on logic when you look at how they set the agreement up.

 

[wheelsup]

Anyway, with those eight aircraft, ExpressJet could see higher profit margains rather than if they had them on a fee for departure setup. Would make sense to try it and see how it works.

I just don't agree. If that were the case why did the regionals go to fee-for-departure, and continue with it. The CEO's have an obligation to the stockholders to make the most amount of money that they can.

Would ExpressJet management bid on something to break even? Is airline management in the business to break even?

Actually, it seems airline management are in the business to lose money.

ExpressJet would have several advantages to low-balling their bid. Obviously XJT management thought they could do better running it then parking it.

 

[CFIse]

how do you figure it's not deserved?

Because arguably driving a 707 or a the original 747s or the MD-10 or any of a number of older generation aircraft was harder, less automation, less protection (TCAS et. al.).

This will set off a firestorm of protest - but the airline industry with it's zero tolerance for accidents policy has made airline flying significantly easier - almost ALL that action taken in areas other than the pilots. The weakest link is the human and the error associated with them, and automation has managed to almost completely eradicate that despite pilots best efforts to screw it up.

If the jobs easier, it doesn't deserve the same compensation. I'm not saying that ANY of that actually drove the change in pilot lifestyle and compensation, but it's a factor in why things won't return to what they once were.

 

[flyTotheSky]

sigh, theres more to corporate aviation glamour than a fortune 500 corporate job.

Maybe if you want the money.

Oh I realize that, I was generally talking about pay. Generally, those fortune 500 companies will pay you well...

However, there a quite a few gem corporate ops out there that have nothing to do with a fortune 500 company.

 

[WAFlyBoy]

First, fix the quote, I didn't say that.

Oops, fixed.

Second, you are right, no one knows what ExpressJet's bid was. Your hypothesis is that they were lower because of operational efficiencies, mine is based more on logic when you look at how they set the agreement up.

I'm not hypothesizing on why ExpressJet got the flying. I'm just pointing out a possibility that seems oft overlooked. Generally speaking, I've noticed that pilots take a rather egocentric view in thinking their salaries are the one and only bane of the bottom line.

I suspect only the decision-makers on both sides of the deal really know why ExpressJet got the contract.

 

[Seggy]

I just don't agree. If that were the case why did the regionals go to fee-for-departure, and continue with it. The CEO's have an obligation to the stockholders to make the most amount of money that they can.

Fee for departure is EASY money for the regionals and their CEOs. You have someone else paying all your bills.

 

[CFIse]

So the new guys are giving up that easy.

If you believe that the unions have the leverage (let alone the will power) to exert a signficant upward movement in pilot lifestyle and compensation then you have been a poor student of union history for the past 50 years.

If you believe that management hasn't fallen in love with the bankruptcy process and it's ability to void contracts, let alone that they are dealing with a marketplace that demands fares that barely support their current labor contracts then you have been a poor student of airline history the past 10 years.

If you believe the government will accept the widespread disruption caused by a major airline strike then you've been a poor student of politicians and government for, oh I'd say a millenium or two.

It's not a question of desire, it's a question of reality and not tiliting at windmills - but if you enjoy a good windmill tilt, and don't we all from time to time, have at it.

 

[Seggy]

If you believe that the unions have the leverage (let alone the will power) to exert a signficant upward movement in pilot lifestyle and compensation then you have been a poor student of union history for the past 50 years.

If you believe that management hasn't fallen in love with the bankruptcy process and it's ability to void contracts, let alone that they are dealing with a marketplace that demands fares that barely support their current labor contracts then you have been a poor student of airline history the past 10 years.

If you believe the government will accept the widespread disruption caused by a major airline strike then you've been a poor student of politicians and government for, oh I'd say a millenium or two.

It's not a question of desire, it's a question of reality and not tiliting at windmills - but if you enjoy a good windmill tilt, and don't we all from time to time, have at it.

It is guys like you who throw your hands up in the air, say I am powerless, and hold up the white surrender flag that makes it easy for management.

 

[wheelsup]

Fee for departure is EASY money for the regionals and their CEOs. You have someone else paying all your bills.

Thank you, that was my point.


You said:

Anyway, with those eight aircraft, ExpressJet could see higher profit margains rather than if they had them on a fee for departure setup. Would make sense to try it and see how it works.

Which just isn't true. Southwest Airlines profit margin (the most profitable, well the only profitable stand alone carrier these days) floats between 4% and 6% per quarter. What is Xjt's? Guaranteed per their contract at around 10%.

Now lay your cards on the table - do you honestly believe what you wrote?

 

[Seggy]

Now lay your cards on the table - do you honestly believe what you wrote?

Yes, because if ExpressJet does a good job, then that will lead to more flying for them on this setup AND higher profits for them down the road. This setup allow for a more fluid arena to make money rather than the restrictions on a fee for departure set up.

 

[derg]

Quite frankly CFIse, none of those things I said.

What I -am- saying is that if you're going to get and/or stay in aviation be prepared for a fight. If the threat of bankruptcy, strikes or labor unrest scares a person, walk nay RUN away from the profession.

Those of us that are staying in the profession for better or worse need to recognize that there is going to be turbulence ahead.

There's going to be a bloodbath at the regional level because there are a glut of regional jets that need care and feeding without a large demand. That's coming, which is why I always suggested preparing yourself to be as universally qualified as possible as to not to have to go down with the regional ship.

There's going to be a bloodbath on almost every level of professional aviation, so you have to be willing to fight. From the cargo pilots fighting dissolving cabotage laws, to the passenger carriers fighting bearded yahoos like Branson, it's coming to every level of professional aviation.

If as professionals, we continue to take the approach of forcible sex with our careers is permissible as long as "The Man"(tm) uses lubrication, we're all screwed.

This isn't targeted at you so please don't take it personal, but we need less "waaaambulances" and more M1A2 Abrams tanks in the streets ready for the upcoming struggle.

It might not work, but I think we need to have a go.

 

[wheelsup]

Generally speaking, I've noticed that pilots take a rather egocentric view in thinking their salaries are the one and only bane of the bottom line.

At the regional level, it has an amplified effect. Why? Because all a regional airline is these days is a shell corporation that hires pilots, F/A's, and a few operational folks such as dispatch and crew scheduling.

Here's some numbers.

Number of pilots @ DAL - 5800.
Employees - 55,000
Percentage of work force - 10.5%

Number of pilots at XJT - 3000
Employees - 6000
Percentage of work force - 50%

 

[n57flyguy]

Oh I realize that, I was generally talking about pay. Generally, those fortune 500 companies will pay you well...

However, there a quite a few gem corporate ops out there that have nothing to do with a fortune 500 company.

Exactly

 

[wheelsup]

Yes, because if ExpressJet does a good job, then that will lead to more flying for them on this setup AND higher profits for them down the road. This setup allow for a more fluid arena to make money rather than the restrictions on a fee for departure set up.

Ah yes, because 4%-6% profit is better than 10%.

That's some crazy math! Good thing you're a pilot and not a bean counter !

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Wow Lloyd. Certainly started taking a turn towards the "This career is just fine to me, so it should be just fine to you as well...quit asking for more."

Sad to see it.

Maybe what I'm seeing isn't what you are sending off. Especially if you are honestly thinking about moving into the 121 regional rat-race, I'd want to work with someone willing to make the career better - to draw better candidates to the field.

Not saying that at all.

So, wipe your eyes. However, I don't like whining. It's one thing to say, "I'm doing everything that I can to improve then industry". I like that. I'll run the race with you.

However, to whine and moan and bellyache - well, that makes you a wuss, and no different from a little girl. In the world that I come from - from growing up, to carrying a machine gun, to flying airplane in crummy weather to get the cargo there - you don't whine like a little girl.

If it's so bad that you have to whine, then you need to find something else to do with your life.

That's part of what I'm saying.

Oh, and the glory? Who gets into a career for glory?

 

[CFIse]

It is guys like you who throw your hands up in the air, say I am powerless, and hold up the white surrender flag that makes it easy for management.

Can you describe a credible environment in which either airline management rewards pilots with increased QOL and compensation, or the unions are able to force management to provide increased QOL or compensation?

I know why I think there won't be significant increases for pilots going forward, but other than "I'd like it to be better" do you know why you think it will get significantly better?

 

[surreal1221]

That's part of what I'm saying.

Fair enough, just needed it clarified. Hope you can see how I came to that conclusion.

As far as glory, I never mentioned glory, so I'll allow Airdale to answer that one.

Can you describe a credible environment in which either airline management rewards pilots with increased QOL and compensation, or the unions are able to force management to provide increased QOL or compensation?

I can't. Essentially because it's too damn easy for companies to run to bankruptcy court. And, it's essentially too damn easy for companies to run to the NMB and blame the union for not getting a contract complete.

Management has it made essentially. All the balls are in their court. Maybe ALPA, and other AFL-CIO unions have plans to bringing the balls back into labor's court. But, I don't know.

 

[CFIse]

It might not work, but I think we need to have a go.

I agree - partly because I don't see an alternative. I also think that we need to carefully pick our battles, it seems likely we'll only win a few, so picking the right ones seems crucial. My current experience leads me to believe that a) most union leadership hasn't figured that out and b) the young and naive pilots think nirvana is but one strike away.

We agree - before you become a pilot, or if you're already one, make sure you understand the industry you're in and if it can make you happy, because this is not you father's airline business anymore.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Hope you can see how I came to that conclusion.

Not really, but ok.

I think that it's the cool thing now to complain about life if you're a pilot. It's starting these days at the CFI level, I think.

So, it raises an eyebrow when somebody says, "I really love getting up and going to work in the morning. I love what I do, and I do enjoy it. I like being paid well, but I don't do it for the money".

That doesn't go well with the "Aghhhh, this sucks!!!" mindset.