Whats to shoot for anymore?

[derg]

Seriously though.

If it sucks because of work rules and pay rates, but people are still willing to plop down massive amonts of money to fly at a regional for an entire career, you've just told the powers that be that it can't be all that bad.

Mesa has a massive staffing problem because of attrition and if the pilots play their cards right and the regional industry comes together and collectively aims to improve working conditions, it'll improve tremendously.

But if the infighting continues, the "please give me those shiney, beautiful jets and I'll fly them for low low rates!" and we continue to supply the airlines with labor, it'll continue the downward spiral.

Seggy is helping improve things at Colgan, but caught a lot of slack because people think collective bargaining is evil and horrible. Everyone wants to go to Expressjet (who has a union) or Skywest (which is going to change drastically when/if the threat of ALPA goes away) but doesn't seem to recognize the overall struggle which made those two airlines attractive in the first place.

There's got to be a time and a place where some of you guys get off your laurels and decide to make positive changes in the profession and stop letting ourselves get manhandled by the Ornsteins, Mullins and Carty's, and Neelman's of the industry.

Not happy? Get off your ass and volunteer for a union committee. Counsel other pilots. DO SOMETHING. I did and continue to do so.

But if we all sit back and bitch in the food court with an iPod in hand and a printed internet forum thread in the other, yes, this profession will continue to suck.

WHATCHOOGONNADOABOUTIT?

Large swaths of the industry suck because the answer is usually "Nothing. I'll just bitch about my profession, barely pay my student loans and hope and pray I find one of the few 'safe havens' to run to whenever they consider my resume. You know, Rome is ablaze but I hear it's not so bad in Carthage... I think I'll be safe there".

 

[Kristie]

The "glory" is never coming back, for a variety of reasons, one of which maybe that the glory used to be deserved and now it no longer is.

how do you figure it's not deserved?

 

[wheelsup]

So the new guys are giving up that easy.

I gave up when United signed it's record breaking TA for huge increases in pay. In concession of that, the company was allowed to grow its regional feed from 50 aircraft to 300. They had theirs, and threw the little guys under the bus. ALPA missed the boat.

Comair pilots obtained an excellent agreement after putting their lively-hood on the line for 89 days and obtained an industry leading (to this day) contract. In response, Delta started handing out flying to other carriers with pay rates that are almost HALF of what the old Comair rates were.

My company signed their contract on 9/11/01, it was on par if not better than Comair's. What happened? After a 15%+ paycut, losing 25% of our bread and butter aircraft, and a complete company shift in flying we are still losing RFP's.

Give up? I gave up a long time ago. Like I said, I'd love to vote in pay increases, as long as I could be assured that others will follow suit. History has showed they won't. Want proof? As kellwolf - Pinnacle pilots are hoping for a $30/hr rate for second year FO's on their aircraft...if pattern bargaining was in effect they'd be in the $38-$40/hr range without blinking an eye.

 

[Seggy]

I gave up when United signed it's record breaking TA for huge increases in pay. In concession of that, the company was allowed to grow its regional feed from 50 aircraft to 300. They had theirs, and threw the little guys under the bus. ALPA missed the boat.

Comair pilots obtained an excellent agreement after putting their lively-hood on the line for 89 days and obtained an industry leading (to this day) contract. In response, Delta started handing out flying to other carriers with pay rates that are almost HALF of what the old Comair rates were.

My company signed their contract on 9/11/01, it was on par if not better than Comair's. What happened? After a 15%+ paycut, losing 25% of our bread and butter aircraft, and a complete company shift in flying we are still losing RFP's.

Give up? I gave up a long time ago. Like I said, I'd love to vote in pay increases, as long as I could be assured that others will follow suit. History has showed they won't.

And that is what we call the past. Just like your trip from last week that was a disaster because of weather and most likely crew shortages. We shouldn't look to the past to decide what the future will hold.

There is a crew shortage NOW at regionals. Time for us take advantage of it as pilots collectively.

 

[BobDDuck]

More flying at the regional level? Honestly how much more regional flying is there out there? The fifty seat RJs are maxed out. How much more regional flying can there be? There are no pilots to fill the current contracts!

That's my point. There isn't room for much more regional flying. It's become a zero sum game at the regionals, which makes Wheel's point very nicely. If some other group captures flying (because they cost structure is low) then somebody else is losing it. Unfortunately right now all the branded flying is controlled by people who mostly only see dollar signs and couldn't give a damn about quality. THAT is out of the control of regional pilots. Mainline pilots? I dunno. Maybe you guys have some control of that but I sure as hell don't see any stepping up so I don't know. Under the gray flag banner I hear AAA pilots complaining all the time about how bad Mesa is but I don't see them linking any of their proposals to requiring quality feed at the Express level.

Mark, what do you do when 2 years down the road (and I know you hope to be elsewhere by then, but humor me) when Colgan management comes to you and says, we have a chance to get more Q400s and fly them for USAirways. Piedmont is flying them for X amount. If you guys agree to X-5% we can get the flying and everybody who is an FO here today will be upgraded by next year.

Hell, we lost flying to 9E and we aren't even flying for the same brand. There were 4 900s waiting for us in Montreal, but we wouldn't agree to a pay cut to get them so Delta bought them instead to give to 9E. That's not even a case of trying to push UP the pay and losing. That's a case of holding the line and losing.

 

[derg]

So what if the first boots on "Omaha" beach thought that "Holy cow! The artillery and bombardment didn't work! What's the point of fighting?"

We have a unique opportunity today and tomorrow to improve the profession with lessons from yesterday.

I think it's worth fighting for. If it wasn't, I sure in hell would be feverishly working on a career exit strategy.

We might not win, but you know, we need to give 'em hell anyway.

 

[BobDDuck]

We might not win, but you know, we need to give 'em hell anyway.

Who's "we" and who's "them"?

 

[derg]

Wallace and Grommit, man!

 

[Seggy]

That's my point. There isn't room for much more regional flying. It's become a zero sum game at the regionals, which makes Wheel's point very nicely. If some other group captures flying (because they cost structure is low) then somebody else is losing it. Unfortunately right now all the branded flying is controlled by people who mostly only see dollar signs and couldn't give a damn about quality. THAT is out of the control of regional pilots. Mainline pilots? I dunno. Maybe you guys have some control of that but I sure as hell don't see any stepping up so I don't know. Under the gray flag banner I hear AAA pilots complaining all the time about how bad Mesa is but I don't see them linking any of their proposals to requiring quality feed at the Express level.

Mark, what do you do when 2 years down the road (and I know you hope to be elsewhere by then, but humor me) when Colgan management comes to you and says, we have a chance to get more Q400s and fly them for USAirways. Piedmont is flying them for X amount. If you guys agree to X-5% we can get the flying and everybody who is an FO here today will be upgraded by next year.

Hell, we lost flying to 9E and we aren't even flying for the same brand. There were 4 900s waiting for us in Montreal, but we wouldn't agree to a pay cut to get them so Delta bought them instead to give to 9E. That's not even a case of trying to push UP the pay and losing. That's a case of holding the line and losing.

Look at ExpressJet. They were awarded Delta flying from ASA. Do they have lower rates than ASA? Not really. Why were THEY awarded that flying instead of some other regionals that were bidding for it?

I would tell management to take those planes along with the paycuts and shove it. Like I said earlier pay does not really play that big a part in a companies bottom line and if they are profitable. Take a look at Continental in the 1980s.

 

[wheelsup]

Continental had the lowest paid major pilots in the 1980s and still declared bankruptcy TWICE.

Oh, you mean after Frank Lorenzo took the company into bankruptcy to void labor contracts, and again while it was under his control due to his incredible mismanagement? Your point hinges on the fact that it was being run by someone who is now prevented from running an airline by the US Department of Transportation? :laff:

Solid argument.

 

[SteveC]

[off-topic, but related]

Personal happiness needs to be independent of job satisfaction.

Life is what you make of it, not what it does to you.

 

[ChrisH]

I feel the pain, believe me. However, I see and hear similar stories worldwide across MANY industries. This is not exclusive of the airlines by any means. I have friends in the computer graphics industry that are being undercut by bottom-feeding graphics houses daily (there are plenty of young people that would work on a DreamWorks film for free).

I'm definitely not trying to dismiss what the AA pilot said, but you have to see that this plot line is happening in just about every industry.You need to find intrinsic motivation in any career to make it worth something.

I think it's important that we stick together as pilots and educate those coming into the industry - just not to the point where we're crapping in their cereal.

Exactly. I know people working in many careers, and they are all struggling to make it, while management is raking in their bonuses.

Airdale,
There is one thing I have learned. There are pilots out there that are extremely negative. All they see is the bad, and they do not believe the career is worth it. However, in my experiences, for every one person I come across, like that, I come across 10 more that love it, both at the regional, and major level. Your going to come across negative people in any career you look at, not just pilots.

 

[Seggy]

Oh, you mean after Frank Lorenzo took the company into bankruptcy to void labor contracts, and again while it was under his control due to his incredible mismanagement? Your point hinges on the fact that it was being run by someone who is now prevented from running an airline by the US Department of Transportation? :laff:

Solid argument.

No it is. You can be paid the less out of ANYONE out there and your airline will still be put in bankruptcy if you have piss poor management.

Look at ExpressJet out of LAX for Delta. Is their pay less than ASA? Why were they awarded it instead of less paid pilot groups airline?

Why was ExpressJet given the flying for Jetblue this past winter? Don't think they would be cheaper than Mesa or Pinnacle?

 

[WAFlyBoy]

Exactly. I know people working in many careers, and they are all struggling to make it, while management is raking in their bonuses.

Hmmm..... raking in their bonuses, you say? And where do I find out how to become "management?" Does Jet University have a direct entry track for that?

The bipartisanship represented here is astounding. Anybody even remotely considering the proposition of seeking a career as an airline pilot should read this thread.

 

[ChrisH]

No it is. You can be paid the less out of ANYONE out there and your airline will still be put in bankruptcy if you have piss poor management.

Look at ExpressJet out of LAX for Delta. Is their pay less than ASA? Why were they awarded it instead of less paid pilot groups airline?

Why was ExpressJet given the flying for Jetblue this past winter? Don't think they would be cheaper than Mesa or Pinnacle?

I hope this is the trend. The airlines need to look at the long term effects. Choosing quality, over cost will, in the long run, potentially earn you more. Why? When passengers know they will have a quality product, they will continue to fly the airline. When you choose the least expensive, less quality airline, it shows, in their service, and the passengers stop flying. The problem is, passengers don't know the difference between the regional side of things, and the mainline side of things, they just view it as a smaller airplane.

Look at CAL, with ExpressJet. CAL has been ranked #1 in customer service several years in a row. They have a quality product in ExpressJet, which I hope they realize. Now, look at those at the bottom of the rankings in customer service/satisfaction, such as America West. You see who they have as a regional.

I think the regional airlines have a much, much larger effect on how customers view the mainline carriers, than the mainlines might think, especially considering the large number of routes these regional carriers are flying.

 

[wheelsup]

No it is. You can be paid the less out of ANYONE out there and your airline will still be put in bankruptcy if you have piss poor management.

Absolutely, no question about that, I agree 100%. An airline that is well run can have the best pay rates, happy employees, and an outstanding future. What are some companies that we know of like that?

In your opinion, do the majority of the airlines operate like those select companies?

Look at ExpressJet out of LAX for Delta. Is their pay less than ASA? Why were they awarded it instead of less paid pilot groups airline?

Why was ExpressJet given the flying for Jetblue this past winter? Don't think they would be cheaper than Mesa or Pinnacle?

Allow me to draw up a scenario for you.

ExpressJet's contract with CAL stipulates that up to 10 aircraft outside of it's CAL feed can be operated at whatever cost XJT sees fit on a fee-for-departure basis. Outside of that their CAL contract must be paid at the newly negotiated amount.

Humor me this. 10 aircraft with DAL were placed on a fee-for-departure structure. 8 additional were placed on a at-risk basis. Tell me, why do you think it was split like that? Why not put all 18 under the fee-for-departure setup?

Hopefully you are picking up what I'm puttin' down.

My hypothesis is that XJT placed those aircraft with DAL at cost/a loss to give them a home. You can't tell me that they make more money doing their own flying - their profits are suffering considerably since they've started it up and they would've put all 18 under shared risk if that were the case. What do you think?

 

[Seggy]

Solid argument.

Charts on why it is...

Flying taken away from ASA

and given to ExpressJet...

ExpressJet is more expensive overall than ASA and they were still awarded flying.

Rates don't do jack squat to who gets awarded these regional feeder contracts.

 

[Seggy]

Allow me to draw up a scenario for you.

ExpressJet's contract with CAL stipulates that up to 10 aircraft outside of it's CAL feed can be operated at whatever cost XJT sees fit on a fee-for-departure basis. Outside of that their CAL contract must be paid at the newly negotiated amount.

Humor me this. 10 aircraft with DAL were placed on a fee-for-departure structure. 8 additional were placed on a at-risk basis. Tell me, why do you think it was split like that? Why not put all 18 under the fee-for-departure setup?

Hopefully you are picking up what I'm puttin' down.

My hypothesis is that XJT placed those aircraft with DAL at cost/a loss to give them a home. You can't tell me that they make more money doing their own flying - their profits are suffering considerably since they've started it up. What do you think?

The fee-for-departure setup is crapola. You are taking away profits from the majors and giving it to feeder operations. They need to do away with it.

Anyway, with those eight aircraft, ExpressJet could see higher profit margains rather than if they had them on a fee for departure setup. Would make sense to try it and see how it works.

Would ExpressJet management bid on something to break even? Is airline management in the business to break even?

 

[WAFlyBoy]

ExpressJet is more expensive overall than ASA and they were still awarded flying.

With regard to the ExpressJet flying in LAX, everybody seems to assume that ExpressJet's bid was higher than ASA or the others. Does anybody know this for a fact?

Just because the pilots are paid more and the quality is better, doesn't mean that the overall cost will be greater. There are lots of ways to create operational efficiencies other than cutting pilot pay (and fuel hedging).

 

[Seggy]

Just because the pilots are paid more and the quality is better, doesn't mean that the overall cost will be greater. There are lots of ways to create operational efficiencies other than cutting pilot pay (and fuel hedging).

Very good point. Take a look at Fedex, UPS, and SWA.