Whats to shoot for anymore?

Airdale

Well-Known Member
While waiting to catch a flight home last week, I was talking with an American Airlines FO on the A300. I was in uniform and we got to chatting in the terminal and he specifically asked me - What is the reason to make a career in this industry anymore?

Before I could answer he explained in very thorough heated detail about how the industry was and how it is now. He mentioned that when American pilots had their contracts thrown out and their pay slashed, that he was forced to sell a house he owned in NJ and downsize, while his management was taking million dollar bonuses. He was VERY disgruntled and down right pissed off at American Airlines, and to be honest I listened to his story and I felt bad for him. He couldn't believe the fact that I make $20k a year and he mentioned how this industry is self destructing with pilots at the lower end willing to work for $18k a year.

After our conversation I was really thinking about what he said and I asked myself - what is at the end of the tunnel to keep driving for? Is it flying a wide bodied aircraft, like the A300 with 267 pax for less then $90k a year? Less then $100k a year? And for how long would that pay stick around? What about retirement? After I give my service to a company for 20 yrs, will I have to worry about when I retire? What happens if management slices pay again?

He told me that next year is going to be a blood bath in the airlines when many contracts come up for negotiation.

What will it take to bring back the glory of this job? What do we have to do to get proper compensation for the responsibility that we undertake?

I didn't realize how bad things were getting until talking first hand with those guys flying the big boys.

One things for sure though, we all need to stand together if things are going to change. I may be very new to the Airline industry, but I believe that its never to early to stand behind the Major Airline pilots to help fight for our future.
 
What will it take to bring back the glory of this job?

Years down the road when you're in line at the teleportation machine (which has replaced airline flying) and when insufficient fossil fuel remains to power airplanes you can tell the person standing next to you that you once were an airline pilot. Perhaps they will look at you with the awe-stricken nature of a ten-year old boy watching a Pan-Am jumbo jet captain settle into his place at the helm in years past. They will feel a glimmer of nostalgic excitement as a little piece of history is standing there before them, not unlike the war bird pilots of old times. Then, before you can get to talking about it too much, it will be your turn to teleport to visit Mom or Cabo San Lucas. You'll stand in the machine, bags clutched at your sides, as the machine operator pulls the handle with the same gleam of intelligence in his eyes as a TSA agent who stares without expression at his x-ray monitor.....

:)
 
I feel the pain, believe me. However, I see and hear similar stories worldwide across MANY industries. This is not exclusive of the airlines by any means. I have friends in the computer graphics industry that are being undercut by bottom-feeding graphics houses daily (there are plenty of young people that would work on a DreamWorks film for free).

I'm definitely not trying to dismiss what the AA pilot said, but you have to see that this plot line is happening in just about every industry.You need to find intrinsic motivation in any career to make it worth something.

I think it's important that we stick together as pilots and educate those coming into the industry - just not to the point where we're crapping in their cereal.
 
While some of what he said may indeed be true, it sounds like you caught him on a bad day. Doesn't sound like a fun person to be in the cockpit with that day. I bet if you saw one Mr. Douglas Taylor in the airport, you would get an entirely different outlook. Some of the same information but the message would be different. If it is truly THAT BAD, then get out. Sounds simple, but true.
 
Get in line at FDX or UPS....

-or-

A really nice Fortune 500 corp. job...

Good luck with those two!

I don't believe there is anymore future in making a career at the pax carriers.
 
There's nowhere to hide if the cabotage laws go away my friend.

The passenger airlines will have a renaissance but it's going to take a lot of leadership, struggle and a lot fewer candyasses in the profession that are afraid of their own shadow.
 
Well, you can definitely find a new line of work if it's that bad . . .

Wow Lloyd. Certainly started taking a turn towards the "This career is just fine to me, so it should be just fine to you as well...quit asking for more."

Sad to see it.

Maybe what I'm seeing isn't what you are sending off. Especially if you are honestly thinking about moving into the 121 regional rat-race, I'd want to work with someone willing to make the career better - to draw better candidates to the field.
 
Wow Lloyd. Certainly started taking a turn towards the "This career is just fine to me, so it should be just fine to you as well...quit asking for more."

Sad to see it.


No I think Lloyd is saying that there is to much negativity towards the career. It REALLY drags down your day when your with someone like that.

It is sad when I see guys who are burnt out and b!tch and piss and moan about every little thing.
 
Oh I agree. If you're only around negative nancys, well, that's all you're going to see - unable to see the positives.

While some may be happy flying 135 SE/ME light GA cargo for 35-60k a year, those of us who want a better QOL, and lifestyle for our families expect more . . .and well, some of us are willing to fight for the compensation that we (collectively) feel we should receive.

Some are happy making 35-60k a year, some are happy making 95-115k as a 50, 70, 86 seat RJ captain, but some expect to make much more than that in their last 15 years flying before they retire.

So, perhaps all I'm saying is respect each others individual wishes and expectations instead of pissing in their cheerios because you think they are asking for too much - or because you think since your pay is good for YOUR LIFESTYLE, that it should also be good for someone else's, which is not always the case.

Seggy said:
It is sad when I see guys who are burnt out and b!tch and piss and moan about every little thing.

Yeah, the little things. Yeah, quit moaning and bitching.

But I do not see Pension removals, 30-40% pay cuts, having to sell your house where your family live, as small things.
 
I'd gladly vote/strike for large pay increases at my carrier if I knew that every carrier after that would build off of that contract...but they won't. So why vote myself out of a job?

I'd rather make industry average than $0.
 
Aroo?!

Me, I'm hoping American gets a good 'restoration' of their pay rates because hell yes I expect my union to piggyback off of that.

I'm not content being paid what I'm being paid and I expect some payback.

You may not, but me, shoot show me the freaking money (and work rules!) ;)

Stop letting "The Man"(tm) manage your expectations, Wheels.
 
Respectfully, you're not at the mercy of dozens of carriers that will gladly underbid your pay rates, take pay freezes to fly ever larger equipment, and in general do anything they can to get more aircraft on property to upgrade quicker.

My company is operating under a concessionary contract to the tune of about 15%. If we even went back to that, compare my pay rate of $40/hr to Pinnacles $24/hr. I don't care how efficient a company is, we just can't compete with that. If we can't compete, I'm out of a job.
 
The "glory" is never coming back, for a variety of reasons, one of which maybe that the glory used to be deserved and now it no longer is.

So the question you have to ask is what do you want out of a job, and does airline flying give it to you? If not find something else. I wouldn't enter this career expecting it to get radically better, I suspect it will improve a little over time, but there's not going to be some huge leap back to making $250K and working 4 days a month. You may think you're a God of the skies and deserving of high pay for little work, but the marketplace begs to differ.

I've had other jobs - in many ways airline flying is much better than those jobs in a variety of ways, pay being a notable exception.

I doubt there's going to be a blood bath, I don't think any airline of a significant size will be "allowed" to strike in my lifetime - right or wrong that's what I think.

Don't worry about the company taking your retirement, you're on your own for retirement now, as far as I know very few of the legacies have a pension plan of any size left, it's all self-directed plans like 401Ks etc. They can't take that away from you - except by fraud, which I grant you isn't beyond the bounds of possibility.

Current airline pilots probably have earned the right to be pissed off, they got screwed, but so did the textile workers, coal miners, auto industry and on and on and on - they need to decide if they want to stay in the industry or move on - but it is what it is, and there's little reason to think it's going to get much better any time soon. For people entering the industry - know what you're getting into and make informed choices - just like people who chose to be doctors, or bus drivers, or technology workers or just about anything made a decision about their career.
 
Doug, the regionals are a different world then mainline. Too many people down here are still trying to capture more flying and are willing to do anything they can to get it. Quote the whole rising tide raises all ships mantra all you want (and for owned flying it is true) but down here in regional world, standing up for better pay to "raise" the industry bar just makes you a target of an RFP by the company holding the brand.

Sure, there is a lot of negativity out there. This is NOT the job that a lot of people go into 20 years ago. Can they do something about it? I sure as hell hope so because while I personally got into it knowing that it may never go back to where it was years ago (WAY before I ever thought about doing this for a living) part of the hope is that it WILL get better. Not that it is all that bad right now, but it certainly has the potential and and historical precedence to be much better.
 
Get in line at FDX or UPS....

-or-

A really nice Fortune 500 corp. job...

Good luck with those two!

I don't believe there is anymore future in making a career at the pax carriers.

sigh, theres more to corporate aviation glamour than a fortune 500 corporate job.

Maybe if you want the money.
 
So the new guys are giving up that easy. :(


Sad isn't it?

The easy thing for me would have been to throw my hands up in the air when we were bought by Pinnacle and say screw it, there is nothing I can do about it. Well we are having a vote for ALPA representation coming a short 7 months after the sale was announced.

Time for pilots to grow some balls. There is a shortage at regionals. Time to tell management like it is and tell them to cut the BS and give us what we deserve.

Doug, the regionals are a different world then mainline. Too many people down here are still trying to capture more flying and are willing to do anything they can to get it. Quote the whole rising tide raises all ships mantra all you want (and for owned flying it is true) but down here in regional world, standing up for better pay to "raise" the industry bar just makes you a target of an RFP by the company holding the brand.

More flying at the regional level? Honestly how much more regional flying is there out there? The fifty seat RJs are maxed out. How much more regional flying can there be? There are no pilots to fill the current contracts!
 
Respectfully, you're not at the mercy of dozens of carriers that will gladly underbid your pay rates, take pay freezes to fly ever larger equipment, and in general do anything they can to get more aircraft on property to upgrade quicker.

My company is operating under a concessionary contract to the tune of about 15%. If we even went back to that, compare my pay rate of $40/hr to Pinnacles $24/hr. I don't care how efficient a company is, we just can't compete with that. If we can't compete, I'm out of a job.


Continental had the lowest paid major pilots in the 1980s and still declared bankruptcy TWICE.

Respectfully, that is not really a valid argument as far as I am concerned.
 
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