What's the Point of a Union at (Regional/Major/Etc.)

Seggy said:
Your place is using the Advisory Circular as a template for a safety reporting system. Yes, it works like an ASAP Program but with the blurred lines of who is on the ERC, who isn't, there isn't that wall that the program needs to be successful. This can be attributed to a lack of resources by that third party.
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Hey, it works pretty good - we have protected one of our guys and made aviation safer with other stuff - so I'll sleep at night. That said it is a full ASAP program in every sense of the program if you're reading the MOU and the A.C. so just because it doesn't meet your standards doesn't mean it isn't a real ASAP program.
 
ppragman said:
Hey, it works pretty good - we have protected one of our guys and made aviation safer with other stuff - so I'll sleep at night.
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That really is the important thing that safety is advanced and guys are being protected.

Just remember past practice isn't an indicator of future results

That said it is a full ASAP program in every sense of the program if you're reading the MOU and the A.C. so just because it doesn't meet your standards doesn't mean it isn't a real ASAP program.
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Once again, from the way you described it, without those walls in place, the blurred lines, and lack of resources by the third party, it isn't following the Advisory Circular Guidelines.
 
I think there's general agreement that these programs can exist with or without a union....in terms of their mere existance on paper and in practice; it appears that question has been resolved pages ago.

The question that appears to be spiking disagreement, is the level of protection....or protection at all.....that can be afforded to the program from one administered by a union vs one that isn't, with regards to the third party stated in the Advisory Circular.
 
MikeD said:
The question that appears to be spiking disagreement, is the level of protection....or protection at all.....that can be afforded to the program from one administered by a union vs one that isn't, with regards to the third party stated in the Advisory Circular.
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Thank you!

Sums it up very nicely.
 
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Seggy said:
Thank you!
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For describing the disagreement? I don't think he indicated support for either position.

I think having ALPA as the third party provides greater resources, but that doesn't make the other programs necessarily less valid, or less effective.

Consider two programs, one with ALPA and one without. If over 30 years neither gets "tested" (ie the ALPA resources never are needed) the programs were effectively the same over that spam of time.

You and ATN are like people who only lived in communist Russia, and can't imagine systems that work any way other than what you know or believe. You both have a seriously hard time stepping out of your point of view, and into another, and that hurts your ability to understand other people.

Bumble, good luck.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Consider two programs, one with ALPA and one without. If over 30 years neither gets "tested" (ie the ALPA resources never are needed) the programs were effectively the same over that spam of time.
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Sure. That's a lot like saying that you aren't going to insure your car because if, over the life of the car you never have an accident it would have just been a waste of money.
 
BobDDuck said:
Sure. That's a lot like saying that you aren't going to insure your car because if, over the life of the car you never have an accident it would have just been a waste of money.
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My point was that ( in your example) you still have a car.

Is it the best possible arrangement if you have minimal coverage vs full coverage? No, but there are costs associated with both.
 
I think Seggy was just agreeing on summing up what the actual discussion should be focused on, as there's alot of sidebar stuff that's mucking up that subject track.

Just trying to keep what is a thread with good information potential from going too far off the rails.

Like I said in my observation, it appears that everyone generally agrees that the program can be created and operated with or without a union, when everything is operating normally. When a monkey wrench gets tossed into the mix and problems begin happening....what level of teeth the program possesses, union or non-union, is where I see everyone differing. In terms of my personal opinion, Im not versed enough in the legalese involved in order to render an informed opinion of which direction really is best practice.
 
and my point was that you can own a car without insurance to which Seggy was saying that you couldn't (that finally changed but that was the point of contention for me not whether or not it's a good idea)
 
Bumblebee said:
and my point was that you can own a car without insurance to which Seggy was saying that you couldn't (that finally changed but that was the point of contention for me not whether or not it's a good idea)
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I think that is illegal where I live and I am pretty sure in the entire United States.
 
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