What's the Point of a Union at (Regional/Major/Etc.)

[Seggy]

I didn't disrespect Seggy, he disrespected himself by overstating his experience…him trying to claim equality with MikeDs experience was almost as funny as when he lied to the girl in the hotel trying to tell her he was an international pilot for Continental when he was a regional airline pilot…same thing. Here he refuses to admit that his statement was inaccurate. I actually tried to not get involved with Seggy for a long time even though he was looking for anything he thought he could use to pick at me…just to set the record straight. Those are the FACTS… lol you two are really doing the union a disservice by living in your fantasy world.

I didn't disrespect myself. You decided to listen to what Qutch was saying instead of listening to me. You really don't believe what I did with the Colgan Accident. I PM'd you at the time to answer any questions you may have had about my experience and you never responded. That's your fault.

With the other thing. It was Vegas, I was single, I was drunk, and there was a girl. You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill with that one.

 

[Seggy]

it took all this time...so silly. so lame

That was the entire purpose of me inserting myself in this thread…go about your business and I'll leave you alone until the nest time you overstate your position.

Actually I stated this quite a few posts ago. Numerous times. So stop wagging your finger at me like you are scolding me.

You ignored what I was saying.

 

[Seggy]

Per the MOU, FAA Guidance and best practices it should be a union.

Companies have ASAP and FOQA programs that aren't unionized but the FAA hates that.

Look what I said in post 39 @Bumblebee .

 

[Seggy]

I know you don't need a union or CBA to have a FOQA or ASAP 'Program'.

But, what is best practice.

Here's another on @Bumblebee.

 

[Seggy]

Here...

You can have an ASAP program but it isn't in full compliance with the Advisory Circular unless you have a union on property.

Post 85 @Bumblebee

 

[zmiller4]

As I said earlier, I don't work there so I really don't know how it is being run as I haven't paid much attention to SAPA recently.

I can say though, in order to be run properly, the third party needs to be able to take actions (I have highlighted above) if there is an issue. Does your third party have a staff both legal and technical to give guidance if there is an issue? What legal action would SAPA take to protect the pilots if for some reason things went south and some pilots were violated due to the fact there was no ASAP Program? Can the SAPA President even speak publicly on issues to the media? Obviously you never want it to get to any of this, but stuff happens.

I'm not currently at Skywest, so I don't know the current answer to these. I do know that the ASAP program at Skywest, in my and many others' experience, works just fine.

Per the MOU, FAA Guidance and best practices it should be a union.

Where in the AC does it say this?

Companies have ASAP and FOQA programs that aren't unionized but the FAA hates that.

What is your evidence that "they hate that"--have you talked with the SLC FSDO or whoever handles Jetblue's certificate? Do you know the ratio of non-union to union companies that have ASAP MOU's? Why would the FAA set up a program where they hate so much of the participation?

You can have an ASAP program but it isn't in full compliance with the Advisory Circular unless you have a union on property.

Where in the AC does it say this?

I'm being stubborn on this for a couple of reasons, and it's because I want an internet fight. First, Skywest's program worked (and likely still is working) well and has helped thousands of pilots and led to safety advancements. Second, if someone on here is considering Skywest, I don't want them thinking that ASAP there is "invalid" or a "sham". It's absolutely fine to point out that there may be no legal support if the program is violated, but I'd lump that in with the union/non union conversation as a whole--i.e. "Skywest pays better than most regionals, but lacks the long-term legal structure of a CBA".

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I didn't disrespect Seggy

 

[Seggy]

I'm not currently at Skywest, so I don't know the current answer to these. I do know that the ASAP program at Skywest, in my and many others' experience, works just fine.

Well that's good.

Where in the AC does it say this?

@ATN_Pilot explained that much earlier in this thread.

What is your evidence that "they hate that"--have you talked with the SLC FSDO or whoever handles Jetblue's certificate? Do you know the ratio of non-union to union companies that have ASAP MOU's? Why would the FAA set up a program where they hate so much of the participation?

"Hate" might have been the wrong word without more detail. I am also talking much higher levels of the FAA than FSDOs. The higher ups within the FAA hates there are different standards with these programs (they also get frustrated at local FSDOs when they go off the reservation at times in their portion of the program). Once again, what recourse does SAPA have if there truly is an issue with the program? The fact there is no recourse with SAPA but there is with XJT shows the different standard that they don't like.

As I said earlier, those who wrote the Advisory Circular knew that there would be places that used the Advisory Circular as a template to get a program set up. Having something is better than nothing.

Where in the AC does it say this?

It goes back to @ATN_Pilot and how he laid out what a third party is.

I'm being stubborn on this for a couple of reasons, and it's because I want an internet fight. First, Skywest's program worked (and likely still is working) well and has helped thousands of pilots and led to safety advancements.

I am sure it has helped, but it could still work better in terms of securing its future.

Second, if someone on here is considering Skywest, I don't want them thinking that ASAP there is "invalid" or a "sham". It's absolutely fine to point out that there may be no legal support if the program is violated, but I'd lump that in with the union/non union conversation as a whole--i.e. "Skywest pays better than most regionals, but lacks the long-term legal structure of a CBA".

Folks who want to go to Skywest should. It isn't a bad place to work. However, understand that the ASAP program doesn't have the protections in place like unionized shops. It probably won't be an issue, until it is.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

 

[Bumblebee]

hey I didn't. I said that his experience in accident investigation was inconsequential when compared to MikeD.

And that's the only point Im making, is that witness testimony certainly doesn't prove or disprove a case....

MikeD, I've talked to dozens of accident investigators, Sorry, but I'm sticking with the majority opinion on this one.

reread Todd. You can be so stubborn...open your mind a little bit...here in this very thread you brought up our good friend Seggy who has inconsequential experience in investigations compared to Mike and yet, you disavow Mike's opinion that is based on real world experience.

Seggy just tried to say I was agreeing with Qutch…that is so far off the issue I wonder if it's meant to bring more controversy into this discussion… Seggy was in disagreement with @MikeD and and I said that @Seggy's experience was inconsequential in comparison. That's not disrespectful…it's just plain true.

 

[Bumblebee]

I PM'd you at the time to answer any questions you may have had about my experience and you never responded. That's your fault.
.

I didn't respond to the PM Mark because you scolded ME in that PM. You didn't ask if I had any questions about your experience.
What was particularly frustrating about that PM was that you tried to tell me that I was not doing my mission is as a moderator here and how disappointed in me you were.


I didn't respond because I didn't want to strain our relationship further.

 

[ppragman]

Here...

You can have an ASAP program but it isn't in full compliance with the Advisory Circular unless you have a union on property.

This is not true. My tiny little 135 shop has an ASAP program with all the protections, and data collection techniques that anyone else has. For the ERC to meet, there has to be a management rep, a rep from the pilots, and a rep from the FAA - there is nothing - literally nothing - in the language of the AC that requires a union at a company to be in full compliance. The ASAP program doesn't give a damn about Union v. Non-Union politics - the ASAP program is about data collection, and for us to be able to freely give data, they had to grant immunity. The representatives are there to provide different perspectives, potential solutions, and possible ramifications for any corrective actions that could be decided on. Pilots flying the line have a different perspective than management officials and are there to counter-balance the "oh, well, just release a memo that should change things right?" mentality that pervades aviation management instead of going for fixes in culture. I'm an ERC member, I helped set up our ASAP program, and I know how this system works - it is not required to have a union on property to have a "full" ASAP program.

 

[Seggy]

Ok @ppragman what happens if there is an issue where data is compromised? What resources do you have to protect that data if a Fed takes it and uses it to violate a pilot?

 

[ppragman]

Ok @ppragman what happens if there is an issue where data is compromised? What resources do you have to protect that data if a Fed takes it and uses it to violate a pilot?

The FAA won't do that up here - they learned their lesson. They tried that and participation plummeted for a couple years.

On top of that this is a non-sequitur. The data in the ASAP is supposed to be more-or-less anonymous but if the data becomes compromised remember participation guarantees immunity provided whatever you did was "accidental" and wasn't criminal in nature. If the ERC accepts a an ASAP report you cannot be retaliated against by the FAA.

The FAA understands that this program is built entirely on trust - they've even (GASP!) accepted willful violations when they were conducted in the interest of safety.

The FAA has actually taken disciplinary action against POIs who betray that trust.

 

[Seggy]

The FAA won't do that up here - they learned their lesson. They tried that and participation plummeted for a couple years.

We had more issues with the FAA than the company with our ASAP Program. Not all Feds are created equal. You need resources to take it up the flagpole if needed.

On top of that this is a non-sequitur. The data in the ASAP is supposed to be more-or-less anonymous but if the data becomes compromised remember participation guarantees immunity provided whatever you did was "accidental" and wasn't criminal in nature. If the ERC accepts a an ASAP report you cannot be retaliated against by the FAA.

All true, but remember the FAA has final say.

The FAA understands that this program is built entirely on trust - they've even (GASP!) accepted willful violations when they were conducted in the interest of safety.

Not all within the FAA understand what the program is about.

The FAA has actually taken disciplinary action against POIs who betray that trust.

Not in my experience have they. Feds who have screwed up have actually gotten promoted in my experience.

 

[ppragman]

We had more issues with the FAA than the company with our ASAP Program. Not all Feds are created equal. You need resources to take it up the flagpole if needed.



All true, but remember the FAA has final say.



Not all within the FAA understand what the program is about.



Not in my experience have they. Feds who have screwed up have actually gotten promoted in my experience.

Regardless there is nothing in the A.C. requiring a union. Extra representation is great, and I wish we had a union (and I'm a management pilot) - but there is no requirement for union representation for ASAP. Companies without unions who are in the ASAP program are full ASAP participants. While having a union adds a layer of protection for the pilots it is not a central point of the ASAP program.

Regardless, the ASAP program is built on trust, and if the FAA violates that trust, the program dies. They know that, and act accordingly. The ASAP program is a separate entity completely unconnected to enforcement at the local FSDOs (can't speak to any outside of AK). POIs are frequently involved when there is a non-sole source report - but immunity is almost always granted when the conditions related to accepting a report are met - and they are pretty easy to meet.

 

[Seggy]

Regardless there is nothing in the A.C. requiring a union. Extra representation is great, and I wish we had a union (and I'm a management pilot) - but there is no requirement for union representation for ASAP. Companies without unions who are in the ASAP program are full ASAP participants. While having a union adds a layer of protection for the pilots it is not a central point of the ASAP program.

Regardless, the ASAP program is built on trust, and if the FAA violates that trust, the program dies. They know that, and act accordingly. The ASAP program is a separate entity completely unconnected to enforcement at the local FSDOs (can't speak to any outside of AK). POIs are frequently involved when there is a non-sole source report - but immunity is almost always granted when the conditions related to accepting a report are met - and they are pretty easy to meet.

What's your role on the ERC?

 

[ppragman]

What's your role on the ERC?

Was a pilot rep - now becoming a management rep once we send another guy to ASAp training.

 

[Seggy]

Was a pilot rep - now becoming a management rep once we send another guy to ASAp training.

Were you the 'pilot rep' when you were a 'management pilot'?

Also where do you send them to ASAP training?

 

[ppragman]

Were you the 'pilot rep' when you were a 'management pilot'?

Also where do you send them to ASAP training?

Nope I was not. Training is conducted at the medallion foundation in anchorage