What's the Point of a Union at (Regional/Major/Etc.)

[Seggy]

intent means nothing. what is is what is.
the fact that someone had intent, does not change the fact…(
fact
[fakt] Show IPA
noun
1.
something that actually exists; reality; truth: )

that there are, (IN FACT) FOQA and other programs required to have a third party, being run by non union entities….

so roll your eyes all you want. You can't change what's FACTual...

See my facts above.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Personally, the CJC Folks did a great job of keeping politics out of the safety structure.

Ha you used safety culture and Colgan in the same sentence. Error. Does not compute.

Finally, the Colgan MOUs for ASAP and FOQA were the best of the all three.

Colgan was a joke of an operation before, during, and after the 2009 crash. It's ridiculous they even got to where they got with virtually no proper oversight. There's a reason I never let my family fly on a Colgan operated airplane (even before the 2009 crash).

 

[Seggy]

Ha you used safety culture and Colgan in the same sentence. Error. Does not compute.

I was talking about the way the CJC MEC folks kept politics out of the safety structure of our union.

Colgan was a joke of an operation before, during, and after the 2009 crash. It's ridiculous they even got to where they got with virtually no proper oversight. There's a reason I never let my family fly on a Colgan operated airplane (even before the 2009 crash).

What is your point? Pinnacle wasn't better. Mesaba did have the best operation out of the three.

I am talking about the MOU ALPA at CJC was able to get in place with the company heading into the merger was the best of the three.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Pinnacle had their MKE incident and their 410 club with just the two pilots. Colgan was far worst. It eventually led to the worst regional crash of recent history. I did lots of training at Manassas. Ask me the the stories with Colgan operating out of that MX base. Holy cow. If I was in the FAA my keyboard would be busy nonstop typing violations.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Fact: FOQA and ASAP programs , MOUs, have been implemented and work at nonunion shops like JetBlue, Virgin, and Skywest.

 

[Bumblebee]

Fact: FOQA and ASAP programs , MOUs, have been implemented and work at nonunion shops like JetBlue, Virgin, and Skywest.

no they don't…nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope

 

[Seggy]

Fact: FOQA and ASAP programs , MOUs, have been implemented and work at nonunion shops like JetBlue, Virgin, and Skywest.

I wouldn't call them 'programs' as there is no legally backed third party that can take action if need be if the 'programs' become compromised.

If your program became compromised, how would whoever represents you react?

 

[Seggy]

no they don't…nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope

That is real mature.

I am giving facts to my reasoning, you don't answer my questions and then you post this. REALLY?

 

[Seggy]

Pinnacle had their MKE incident and their 410 club with just the two pilots. Colgan was far worst. It eventually led to the worst regional crash of recent history. I did lots of training at Manassas. Ask me the the stories with Colgan operating out of that MX base. Holy cow. If I was in the FAA my keyboard would be busy nonstop typing violations.

 

[Seggy]

there is no getting through to you.

So you are assuming I am wrong just because you think it worked ok at Skywest (just out of curiosity, how many ASAP or FOQA MOUs have you negotiated and/or signed?), I am the one who there is no getting through to??? Right...

this is what it's like trying to discuss something with you….completely and utterly frustrating…and frankly not worth the effort.

Whatever Dale. I spent years of my life dealing with this stuff and if you want to discount my experience I gained then I am not the one you should be frustrated at. I am trying to put correct information out there. Isn't that what this site is about? Getting good and correct information out to the users?

Once again, you can't have an all encompassing ASAP or FOQA program without a collective bargaining unit (union) on property. You need that union for the legal backing associated with these types of programs.

 

[Bumblebee]

I'm not assuming you're wrong, you ARE wrong. There are working programs out there, many people have stated that…you just can't bring yourself to admit that they are working because it doesn't go with your narrative. and the frustrating part is, you change what you say as you go…now it's "all encompassing" bull. all encompassing all encompassing…that was added on later.

so whatever back Seggy…I don't claim to know it all…I don't…never have.And I really do appreciate the experience you've gained…just not the way you act like you are the end all authority. Sometimes I have not appreciated the way you portrayed yourself as an expert when you weren't while you were not respecting someone with FAR FAR FAR more experience against whom you tried to hold yourself out as a equal… and you can't carry the mans boots…

and frankly, you're no expert here either, you just want to act like the big shot.. It's all Union all the time with you…and that's just not true. You drank the KoolAid so much you're purple.

In order to comply with the FAA guidance in the MOU you need a collective bargaining representative to serve as the gatekeeper of information. If you don't have that, the company can go after the pilots which defeats the purpose of these programs.

Even @PhilosopherPilot who I vehemently disagree with on about everything, agrees, a certified union ONLY fills that role.

Also @SteveC

Per the Advisory Circular it technically isn't a FOQA or ASAP program without a union.

From the circular:
An ASAP is based on a safety partnership that will include the FAA and the Certificate Holder and may include a third party, such as the employee's labor organization.

that is a direct quote…it says MAY include a third party…so apparently that's not even a requirement if you follow the definition of MAY. Even after that it says "such as" the employees labor organization not SHALL BE. this is why.


You could back off from you strident and know it all ways and say something like this which might give you more credibility.

ALthough some ASAP programs are administered without a union being the third party, I would highly recommend that a union be a part of the process…


but no, not you.it's your way or no way…I say no way.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Personally, the CJC Folks did a great job of keeping politics out of the safety structure.




It really has a simple answer. @amorris311 will correct me if I am wrong, but the Legacy Pinnacle MEC was 'ok' with the ASAP and FOQA Gatekeeper NOT being elected within the third party of the ALPA Safety Structure. Specifically, at Pinnacle, the ASAP/FOQA Gatekeeper was in management. Now this guy was great at what he did, but the conflict of interest was there and needed to be changed in a very public manner to make a very strong point.

Also, with the actual MOU. From January 2009 until January 2011, I think I signed at least 5 or 6 ASAP and FOQA MOUs combined. You are constantly trying to change and tweak them to make them better, however, when looked at by the person at ALPA, he is making sure the basic foundations (of a three party MOU, any party can back out at anytime, etc.) is there. When we went back to tweak the MOUs, it had a lot to do with the administrative side of it (such as securing positive space travel for the gatekeepers, computers paid for by the company for them to work at it at home, expenses covered by the company, etc.).

Finally, the Colgan MOUs for ASAP and FOQA were the best of the all three.

Except that now 1/3 of the company does not file ASAP reports.

The Mesaba guys file them like they are going out of style, to help with safety culture, we were taught to do it only if we had a "non-criminal", "unintentional" violation.

So why did FedEx claim that ours was the industry gold standard? Why did it supposedly get high marks in Herdon?

As far as I know, MD was a line pilot, and he was the FOQA gate keeper. Max didn't deal with any identified FOQA data. The ASAP program isn't de-identified at the ERC level, so there is an FAA guy, company guy, and ALPA guy looking at those (that's current structure). As an aside, I received a phone call from management for an ASAP about something I put in mine was unrelated to the actual ASAP but was useful info.

Something doesn't pass the smell test from all of this.

I'm sure it wouldn't surprise @ATN_Pilot either though, but of the 3 combined groups, Pinnacle is the most anti-ALPA. Not me, personally, but daily it's a huge discussion in the crew room. People are as proud of that as the DTW guys were about the Trenary incident.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I'm not assuming you're wrong, you ARE wrong. There are working programs out there, many people have stated that…

They are "working" in the same sense that an oral contract is "working." It works as long as both parties do what they said they were going to do, but as soon as one party decides not to, then it no longer "works," because it is impossible to enforce. This is what @Seggy keeps telling you, but you're either too stubborn to admit it or you're just not listening to him.

 

[SteveC]

They are "working" in the same sense that an oral contract is "working." It works as long as both parties do what they said they were going to do, but as soon as one party decides not to, then it no longer "works," because it is impossible to enforce. This is what @Seggy keeps telling you, but you're either too stubborn to admit it or you're just not listening to him.

Semantics is the issue here.

A program with issues is still a program.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Semantics is the issue here.

A program with issues is still a program.

It's not semantics. A program that is not enforceable is not really a program at all. It's just something that management provides to make themselves look benevolent until they decide that it's no longer in their best interest.

 

[Cptnchia]

I get the feeling that you guys are talking past each other.

This is how I see it. Sure, the non union carriers have these programs, and they may be "working" in the sense that a cut rate car insurance company may be working for me, but what kind of service will I get after a car accident over what I would get from a premium carrier? Buddy of mine switched to save money on his premiums. All was well. Then his kid had a crash and said insurance company was harder to get a hold of than a fart in the wind.

Same thing with this issue. Everything may be fine and dandy now, but bend metal, or have a contentious management, and then where are you?

Other than that, DAYUM! Someone needs to move this to Mind Numbing Topics.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Here's what I think... rable rable rable.
Rable rable rable.

@jtrain609 is a mook.

 

[Seggy]

I'm not assuming you're wrong, you ARE wrong. There are working programs out there, many people have stated that…you just can't bring yourself to admit that they are working because it doesn't go with your narrative. and the frustrating part is, you change what you say as you go…now it's "all encompassing" bull. all encompassing all encompassing…that was added on later.

The programs were created with unions in mind. How hard is that to understand? If you don't have the union safeguards in place, the programs aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

so whatever back Seggy…I don't claim to know it all…I don't…never have.And I really do appreciate the experience you've gained…just not the way you act like you are the end all authority. Sometimes I have not appreciated the way you portrayed yourself as an expert when you weren't while you were not respecting someone with FAR FAR FAR more experience against whom you tried to hold yourself out as a equal… and you can't carry the mans boots…

If anything there is an attitude from some folks like they are the old man and I need to get off their lawns. That was very prevelant when I was told by someone that 'he has been doing it longer than I have' for 'daring' to question him on some points he was bringing up and pointing out where he was being deficient in his analysis. REALLY???? Way to bring back the 'Captain's Authority' we saw in the 1950s/1960s/1970s on the web board! Am I not supposed to question? Yes, he has been in aviation longer than I have, but that really means nothing. His experience in some operating environments is less than mine (like mine are with his). That is fine, but are we really supposed to bow down to some users because they have been in aviation longer and take their word as gold? Or are we supposed to question what they are saying to further the discussion?

and frankly, you're no expert here either, you just want to act like the big shot.. It's all Union all the time with you…and that's just not true. You drank the KoolAid so much you're purple.

Once again here comes the old man get off my lawn attitude. I have far more experience in handling these programs than most folks on here. Am I a subject matter expert? No. But, I am very familiar with these programs. KoolAid has nothing to do with it. ALPA has problems, but it is a great organization, especially when it comes to safety matters.

From the circular:
An ASAP is based on a safety partnership that will include the FAA and the Certificate Holder and may include a third party, such as the employee's labor organization.

that is a direct quote…it says MAY include a third party…so apparently that's not even a requirement if you follow the definition of MAY. Even after that it says "such as" the employees labor organization not SHALL BE. this is why.

I addressed this (I will address it again, even though you refuse to answer my questions about legal backing and the importance it plays in enforcement and how would Delta and Air Wisconsin have faired if they didn't have a union supporting them when they pulled out of the program). They knew that some places (like Skywest) wouldn't have a union on property, but they wanted to make sure there was a template in place to provide some parts of the 'program' as having something in place is better than having nothing.

You could back off from you strident and know it all ways and say something like this which might give you more credibility.

I would like to hear your background to speak with such authority on the basis of these programs.

ALthough some ASAP programs are administered without a union being the third party, I would highly recommend that a union be a part of the process…

It isn't 'highly recommend', it is 'require'.

but no, not you.it's your way or no way…I say no way.

Once again, others on here have experiences that can bring a lot to the table. If they question another user that in your mind has more experience, there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Bumblebee]

If the company and the FAA want to have the program, and they (either one) use it ONE TIME to burn the pilot, then poof! No more program...no more avoiding fines...no more information to stop abuse of equipment and so on. etc.ad nauseum.

The FAA agreed through the MOU to not burn the company or the pilot…so what's stopping them? The union? Not from a defensive posture, these programs are in place from a proactive posture. The fact is that these programs cause a much greater safety culture and Everyone (big E for Effect) benefits is the biggest motivator to not violate the trust of the program. If you remove trust in the system there's no regaining that.

I hear loud and clear that there is no contractual standing…but that wasn't the original statement and the point here is if you're going to say something that is inaccurate, then either man up and admit it and modify your statement, or be prepared to be blasted when you try to hide behind those semantics.

I learn all the time here… I have admitted in very public ways when I'm wrong…and I don't recall a time when I held myself out to be an expert. I think people who puff, and overstate their experience, and can''t admit such a simple thing that they started off with the wrong words are the ones who cause a lack of clarity for those learning. That's what's irritating to me…

oh, and I'm not going anywhere.

 

[Bumblebee]

Plus I don't like being basically called a liar, so you might rethink the way you describe me.
dis·in·gen·u·ous
[dis-in-jen-yoo-uh

s] lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous;

Anyone who knows me knows this to be untrue.