What's the Point of a Union at (Regional/Major/Etc.)

zmiller4 said:
Would you say that ASAP at Skywest is a failure (or is doomed to fail) then?
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I don't work at Skywest, but people aren't bitching about the ASAP Program there, so I don't know how it is working. It also may work for years to come the same way in an acceptable manner to the pilots at Skywest.

Or it may not work well in the future. One shouldn't assume things will work in the future the way they have worked in the past.
 
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Seggy said:
Up to this point it isn't a failure. It also may work for years to come the same way in an acceptable manner to the pilots at Skywest.
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So then I take it what you mean is that unions are *not* essential to have a working ASAP, but they are only way to guarantee the long-term functionality of the program.

I'll buy that. That's why I voted for alpa at Skywest--not because I thought it would get me better pay or make my job more secure, but because all it takes is a shift in management to hurt an employer-employee relationship, and I wanted an insurance policy.

But there's an important distinction between "no union = no ASAP/FOQA" and "no union = no insurance of program longevity".
 
jtrain609 said:
Jesus dude, really? Go ahead and keep acting like an ignorant rube if you'd like, but you and Todd seem like you're doing everything you can to make ALPA look like it's made up of a bunch of simplistic hacks who don't know how to read.
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I think I'll continue to listen to the actual labor and aviation law attorneys with hundreds of years of combined experience in said areas of law instead of the recent law school graduate. But thanks for your arrogant input. Always appreciated.
 
Seggy said:
Why are folks thinking the FAA will ensure the program is run the proper way? We almost pulled the program a few times at Colgan because of the FAA actions.
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Because the FAA is a government entity that is fighting for cash I could easily see them issuing a large fine. I know I don't know the program inside and out but the FAA does have a history of fines for safety violations. In the end there is the argument of the FAA not being very standard across the board.

ASAP programs at non-unionized carriers can be done. If management doesn't want a union on property I guarantee they wont violate the anonymity of the program unless they are stupid. Places like SkyWest have gone to great lengths (good and bad things for pilots) to keep unions off property. I wonder how much it cost them to run stupid fat on pilots when everyone else was furloughing in 2009.

I do understand why having a union to help police ASAP is way better than none, but I can't see ASAP being impossible without one.
 
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zmiller4 said:
That's why I voted for alpa at Skywest--not because I thought it would get me better pay or make my job more secure, but because all it takes is a shift in management to hurt an employer-employee relationship, and I wanted an insurance policy.
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Me too, (please note the spelling of too in this case), even while I was a SAPA Rep (who determined the need, fought the political fight and delivered on a ProStan Program).
 
Seggy said:
Yet, you are saying that what I am saying is wrong. Ok then. Gotchya.
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I am saying you are incorrect about some things…not that I know about all things. This is where you come off the rails… there are, right now programs working without a union…this is a fact. You deny that it is possible without a union, that has been well established. That is the point of contention.
 
Bumblebee said:
I am saying you are incorrect about some things…not that I know about all things. This is where you come off the rails… there are, right now programs working without a union…this is a fact. You deny that it is possible without a union, that has been well established. That is the point of contention.
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My point is how can they be considered 'working programs' if the third party really has no sort of recourse if things get compromised within the program?
 
because they are working! They are covered under the AC you quoted and the company and the FAA have financial and other reasons to not violate the MOU…if things get compromised within the program anywhere (unions included), then it would no longer be a working program and the pilots would check out. There may be recourse but that would still be only in the case of a dysfunctional program that no longer functions properly.
 
you know, you might get better traction if you stopped with Unions are the only solution and toned it back a bit to sell the idea that they are the better solution. Making patently incorrect statements about reality does you no good.


and I have to stop for a while
;)
I'm trying to do something in the interest of national safety, oh and pre-prodution on my next album set for recording in April…oh yeah, I start training for my new Air Attack gig tomorrow…
other than that I guess I could sit here and hit the tetherball with you until my fingertips bleed.
 
Bumblebee said:
because they are working! They are covered under the AC you quoted and the company and the FAA have financial and other reasons to not violate the MOU…if things get compromised within the program anywhere (unions included), then it would no longer be a working program and the pilots would check out. There may be recourse but that would still be only in the case of a dysfunctional program that no longer functions properly.
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How do the pilots check out?
 
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