What's the Point of a Union at (Regional/Major/Etc.)

amorris311 said:
So you don't file an ASAP report but the program (in the eyes of the FAA) is still open and ongoing. That is not a smart move, and a lot of pilots will start getting mail from the FAA they didn't before.
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and the airline will be under scrutiny for violating the MOU as well…sounds like a bad deal to me. Doesn't mean that there are not working programs now in effect with non union houses. I didn't say it was the best idea in the world nor did I ever advocate for that position. Now did I? Find me saying that.

I merely was pointing out inaccuracies in statements made.
try to clean that up. OK see ya.
 
Bumblebee said:
and the airline will be under scrutiny for violating the MOU as well…sounds like a bad deal to me. Doesn't mean that there are not working programs now in effect with non union houses. I didn't say it was the best idea in the world nor did I ever advocate for that position. Now did I? Find me saying that.

I merely was pointing out inaccuracies in statements made.
try to clean that up. OK see ya.
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You cannot be serious. You said, " you don't file in the future". You wrote that less than a half hour ago.
 
what are you tailking about? What does that have to do with anything? serious about what? Make your point clearer.
amorris311 said:
You cannot be serious. You said, " you don't file in the future". You wrote that less than a half hour ago.
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regarding how a pilot would check out…not be cooperative...
 
Bumblebee said:
what are you tailking about? What does that have to do with anything? serious about what? Make your point clearer.
regarding how a pilot would check out…not be cooperative...
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So now what you write you don't advocate? Who are you speaking for? Dale I asked you two questions. Your first reply was, pilots won't cooperate. I followed it up with how do you not cooperate with filed ASAP reports and FOQA data. YOU then wrote, don't file them in the future. So when you ask me to show you where you advocated not filing ASAP reports I showed you. Now is that clear enough for you?
 
amorris311 said:
So now what you write you don't advocate? Who are you speaking for? Dale I asked you two questions. Your first reply was, pilots won't cooperate. I followed it up with how do you not cooperate with filed ASAP reports and FOQA data. YOU then wrote, don't file them in the future. So when you ask me to show you where you advocated not filing ASAP reports I showed you. Now is that clear enough for you?
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You all are talking over one another.

From what I follow, Dale was saying that the program will only work if pilots participate and trust in it. The "not cooperate" part, as I read it, refers to pilots not taking part in the program by not bothering to file reports; not the idea that they wouldn't cooperate with reports already on file.

"Not filing in the future", appears to be the result of what would happen if pilots lost faith, for whatever reason, in their ASAP program at their company. With no participation, it would then be a failure.

That's how I was reading it, thus far.
 
Doesn't mean that there are not working programs now in effect with non union houses. I didn't say it was the best idea in the world (for these programs without a union) nor did I ever advocate for that position.
amorris311 said:
So now what you write you don't advocate? Who are you speaking for? Dale I asked you two questions. Your first reply was, pilots won't cooperate. I followed it up with how do you not cooperate with filed ASAP reports and FOQA data. YOU then wrote, don't file them in the future. So when you ask me to show you where you advocated not filing ASAP reports I showed you. Now is that clear enough for you?
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make more sense?
 
Seggy said:
Hence why you need a union (with large resources) to guide pilots through that minefield. Not SAPA :).
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Seggy and amorris,

To the best of my knowledge (which is a bit more first-hand than either of yours on this subject ;) ), ASAP works fine at Skywest. Granted, I never filed a non-sole source one, but *no one* I know has had any problem with it. It's working, and by denying that it is you're hurting your cause.

I get that you guys have a vested interest in ALPA being the only legitimate form of pilot representation--and that may well be the case--but insisting that "no ASAP can exist without a union" when a glaring example to the contrary sounds a little "Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf".
 
You would file an ASRS instead. That still provides protection. There is an option under ASAP to file an ASRS by the way.

I think @Bumblebee is saying that they would do exactly what we would if the company started hosing us. No more filing and withdraw MOU.

Can anyone tell me why an ASRS would not work? And if so, why does it work outside of the airlines?
 
zmiller4 said:
Seggy and amorris,

To the best of my knowledge (which is a bit more first-hand than either of yours on this subject ;) ), ASAP works fine at Skywest. Granted, I never filed a non-sole source one, but *no one* I know has had any problem with it. It's working, and by denying that it is you're hurting your cause.

I get that you guys have a vested interest in ALPA being the only legitimate form of pilot representation--and that may well be the case--but insisting that "no ASAP can exist without a union" when a glaring example to the contrary sounds a little "Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf".
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I don't think I jumped on the it has to be a union bandwagon completely. I asked a couple of questions because I haven't had to deal with that scenario. Skywest's management team right now seems to understand the importance of safety. If for whatever reason that changes I don't know if they have the protections provided with a union. That's all.
 
Seggy said:
Yes, really. It can be enforced with money, but in all practical purposes, it won't work the way it was intended to, without a union.

Sometimes you need to K.I.S.S.
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Man O man... Like JTrain said, words mean things. You can't say that it isn't enforceable when you mean it isn't practical to enforce it. There's a difference, and it's an important one.



Anywho, to answer your question, a 709 ride is not disciplinary if it's the result of training assigned by the ASAP ERC. So imagine Captain Crunch has to get some training as a result of his event to comply with the ERC corrective action. If he is unable to complete that training, he may be assigned a 709 ride to assess his abilities. If he is unable to carry out the roles and responsibilities of the certificate he holds, well, he's unable to complete his corrective action, and that is going to be a bad day for him.

ASAP is not meant to protect your job if you are incompetent. The protections are intended to provide an incentive for reporting. The goal is not job/certificate protection, but rather a side effect of the program.

Let me repeat that... The GOAL is to gather data about error and weakness in the system, not provide job protection.

It's the whole iceberg slide that we've all seen before. For every incident we hear about, there are ninety bajillion ones no one has a clue about. ASAP is about learning more about those that go beneath the surface. To encourage people to come forward with those errors, ASAP offers job/certificate protections.

Those who think ASAP is just a get out of jail free card are both mistaken, and have a misunderstanding of aviation safety.
 
ASRS protection is also limited. You can file as many of them as you want, but if you're dealing with a non-sole source report, you can only use ASRS filing to protect yourself once every five years. No such limits exist in ASAP.
 
The last 2 pages of posts dealt with absolutes as opposed to what's recommended. That's what I mean by using the right words. It seems to me that it's not impossible, but not recommended to have an ASAP/FOQA program without a union.
 
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