What's the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[casaosa]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Well Doug, I guess Paul and I were totally outnumbered. I hope you get some results from your efforts but I am certainly not going to hold my breathe, remember I work for these guys. I was promised more open communication and monthly meetings about 8 months ago.......guess what? But PAIFA certainly has more at stake by not talking to you and the forums than not talking to me so hopefully they will finally listen to someone. Believe me, I see what these kids go through each day and I am totally in their corner, however you feel you can help, you have my blessings!!! And by the by, you won't be flying with me.....but you might be piloting the plane I am in someday so I will stay on your good side!!!!

 

[Tired]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

I’m not sure this thread even deserves a response yet. The concerns raised in this thread seem pretty mild to me, moreover, they are all things that have already been brought to the attention of the management and are being worked on. The thing most posters seemed to complain about is the brief time. To begin with, in all my time there I don’t believe I’ve shorted a student brief time. Yes, every once in while I have to run from one flight to another, but I give quite a bit of free ground to each student during a rating that makes up for it. Remember, on a one hour flight you are only paying for twelve minutes before and after the flight. If you think your being ripped of by your instructor, then why not bring this up with your instructor, and then his or her supervisor if they don’t fix it? Interestingly, the biggest whiner here about this policy is FLDiver, who never really attended the school. Moreover, don’t think that changing the way brief time is being charged will save the students money, you’d be mistaken. Pan Am told the students up front that each rating would cost a certain amount of dollars. If they change the way brief time is calculated then expect something else to cost more so that the total program cost remains the same

The other main complaint posted here is that you have to go in seven days a week. I’ll also add something not mentioned here yet, late night/early morning instrument flights. Here’s the problem as I understand it. If you’re in ground school you’re still required to fly once per day, thus giving you ten activates per week. Now, if your instructor works weekends then you’ll have to come in every day of the week. However, four of those days are half days, and three are full days. Yes, that’s demanding, but not completely overwhelming. Moreover, it’s only for a the duration of ground school. Private and instrument ground schools are longer, but most only last one week. It just doesn’t seem that unreasonable to work at that pace work a short time. That said, let’s say that Pan Am goes ahead and gets rid of weekend flying and late night flying. Here would be three big disadvantages. The time to complete the program would increase, aircraft availability would become a problem, and aircraft rates would have to increase. Completing the program on time is something that students have raised issue with. If you don’t complete ten activates a week there isn’t much chance you’ll finish in time. Also, if Pan Am doesn’t fly nights and weekends then aircraft availability would be a problem. There are too many students to only run the aircraft and sims 9-5 M thru F. Lastly, the aircraft rates would have to increase. Since the aircraft are flying less hours a month, the fixed costs will be spread out over less flight hours. Pan Am’s cost per an hour would increase, and there isn’t anyone else to pass these costs onto other than the students. This problem would be further increased if Pan Am had to purchase more aircraft to fix aircraft availability problems. Considering that the cost per hour for the aircraft is less then the other school on the airport (DVT), I’d say the price is pretty fair. Hopefully you can agree that putting up with an inconvenient schedule does have benefits.

So Pan Am, like any other large company does have a few mild issues. However, there are advantages to attending Pan Am. You’ll learn to fly in a nice facility in brand new aircraft, at one of the busiest GA airports in the world (DVT). You’ll receive good training from fairly knowledgably instructors, and be held to high standards. Our safety record speaks for itself. We've had zero fatal accidents, and no gears up landings (DVT). Once you become an instructor you’ll build time quickly, and you’ll get those precious multi-engine hours. Students will be assigned to you so you won’t have to wait behind the counter all day for potential students to come through the door. Lastly, you’ll be paid a pretty fair wage for your work. Then there is the ACE program, I don’t know much about it (panampilot, help here?), but people seem to be getting hired with pretty low time.

Now, I learned to fly at a school where the flight ops building was a trailer, and most of the aircraft had over 10,000 hours on them. I’ve also attended ATPs and visited a few other schools, and I’d have to say that Pan Am students and instructors have it pretty good.

 

[Tired]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

After re-reading my post there, maybe I was little harsh saying that the problems brought up in this thread are mild, since some people seem pretty upset about them. Hopefully thought a reasonable person can understand my arguments and a have a little insight into why things are that way. Pam Am is a decent school, but it’s not the school for everybody. If your reading this thread trying to make a decision you have to decided if the stated inconveniences outweigh the benefits of attending.

 

[rausda27]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

In response to a quote from Tireds' post:
"We've had zero fatal accidents, and no gears up landings (DVT). "


Anyone see the Chris Rock HBO Special?
" I take care of my kids"..."I aint never been to jail".....

0 fatal accidents, no gear up landings...WOW!!! Join the thousands of FBO's part 61 and 141 training facilities that can also claim this same fact.

Sorry to interupt this facinating thread....but really.

 

[stuckingfk]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[ QUOTE ]
(Asian design major?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I got to thinking, was that what that guys (Doug, before he smoked that fatty blunt)) major was and when Brodi was up there, nobody would believe that from just looking at him?

 

[FLDiver]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[ QUOTE ]
I’m not sure this thread even deserves a response yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I happen to agree with you on this one. There are plenty of complaints that have not been addressed in this thread. If I were Doug, I would wait until most of the legit complaints were compiled and then submit them to Pan Am admin. Yes, they are already aware of these problems and they have been for a long time and they usually turn a deaf ear to their students and instructors.

[ QUOTE ]
Remember on a one hour flight you are only paying for twelve minutes before and after the flight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a hell of a lot of money for only 12 minutes or even 24 for that matter.

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly, the biggest whiner here about this policy is FLDiver, who never really attended the school.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tired, you will really fit into upper level management very well. You, like the Pan Am admin., do not listen to a thing the students (customers) have to say. Tired, your name is appropriate, when you are tired, your brain shuts down and by that ignorant statement (above) you have obviously NOT read my previous posts that have been going on for well over a year. If you had indeed read my posts you will see that I DID in fact attend Pan Am at the FPR facility. It seems to me that the DVT facility is run somewhat differently than the FPR facility, but I really can't say because I have never been to the DVT facility, therefore I do not comment on it. Have you been to the FPR facility???


[ QUOTE ]
The other main complaint posted here is that you have to go in seven days a week. I’ll also add something not mentioned here yet, late night/early morning instrument flights.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me personally, I dont (didnt) have a problem with it.

[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully you can agree that putting up with an inconvenient schedule does have benefits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but what about putting up with admin.and their arrogance, inflexible scheduling and accounting problems. Is it worth it??? I don't think so.

[ QUOTE ]
there are advantages to attending Pan Am. You’ll learn to fly in a nice facility in brand new aircraft

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but at a premium price. Why not get the exact same ratings elsewhere for considerably cheaper and less hassle with admin problems.

[ QUOTE ]
be held to high standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

High standards or ridiculous and inflexible rules, designed to rob students of their loan money, which they have absolutely no control over.

[ QUOTE ]
Once you become an instructor you’ll build time quickly, and you’ll get those precious multi-engine hours. Students will be assigned to you so you won’t have to wait behind the counter all day for potential students to come through the door.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is IF you become an instructor. It is popular information that the Pan Am admin has to like you in order to hire you. Or, you can be hired on (as per contract) but they dont have to give you any students. Why take that chance?

[ QUOTE ]
The ACE program , I don’t know much about it (panampilot, help here?), but people seem to be getting hired with pretty low time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, the good ole ACE program. Tired, if you are an instructor at Pan Am, why don't you know about this program?? Just curious is all. Everyone knows this is a cash cow for Pan Am. While the jury is still out about if it is truley worth the 7K you spend for nonloggable time, any experience is good experience...agreed?? However, Pan Am has moved this program to a much earlier stage in a students career program. Then Pan Am boasts that ALL the new hires are ACE grads. Well, this makes a hell of a lot of sense. Since Pan Am forces students to take the ACE program early (strictly for profit), of course ALL of thier newly hired grads will be ACE grads...its like saying that all new hires are also Private Pilots. Get the gist??

[ QUOTE ]
I’d have to say that Pan Am students and instructors have it pretty good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will agree with you here. Again, pretty, new, air conditioned aircraft (while nice)come at an extreme cost to the student. Why pay for all of the mumbo jumbo when you can get the same ratings, the same quality training and with less hassle, less cost, and a lot of times, faster than you can at Pan Am? In reality, all you are paying for at Pan Am is a name.
Prospective students, protect your assets. Go to a place where YOU and YOU alone control your money and schedule. Go to a place that values you as a customer and appreciates your business. Learn a lesson from the ATA students, don't place all of your eggs in one basket, you never know who is next to go belly up and take your money with them. The bank could care less, as long as YOU pay your monthly loan payment. Especially in this economy, you have to protect yourself and your assets. One of the best ways to do this is NOT to attend Pan Am. I am done for now.

 

[perpetual]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Doug, Do it

<font color="red">Pan Am HAS Violated my contract.

PAN AM did not only GO past the MAXIMUM ALLOTED TIME OF 60 DAYS
for the RETURN of MY money, but they DID SO by an ENTIRE MONTHS TIME
after the 60th DAY.

THIS held My training up, DELAYED Any form of actual progression
aside from my own self study, and in ADDITION, Cost me LIVING EXPENSES,
of Which I had to draw from my established living account.

Pan Am has in total TAKEN an outrageous 6000$ in BRIEFING Costs Alone.
That is FKing insane, This is Money that could have been put towards Flight Time,
and or an ENTIRELY seperate Rating.

IF ANYONE OUT THERE IS LISTENING:


DO NOT Attend PAN AM in Fort Pierce, Florida:</font>

Save Your Money, and Fly at a local FBO. You will save Thousands of $$.
By Attending PAN AM, you are NOT getting anything special, YOU End up with the SAME Ratings,
and knowedge that Any intelligent, hard working person can attain elsewhere.

 

[panampilot]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[ QUOTE ]
Pan Am has in total TAKEN an outrageous 6000$ in BRIEFING Costs Alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your concern here but Pan Am has changed that, at least here in Phoenix. I did my private and instrument at a local FBO before I came to Pan Am and they charged me for briefing times there. So, it's not like wherever else you go they don't charge you for briefing times, it's just that at Pan Am it is a fixed amount of time.

 

[Tired]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[/ QUOTE ]
0 fatal accidents, no gear up landings...WOW!!! Join the thousands of FBO's part 61 and 141 training facilities that can also claim this same fact.

Sorry to interupt this facinating thread....but really.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever. I didn't say other places didn't have good safety records. However, Pan Am has an excellent safety record, which can't be matched by some of the local competitors in the Phoenix area.

 

[Tired]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[ QUOTE ]
Pan Am has in total TAKEN an outrageous 6000$ in BRIEFING Costs Alone.
That is FKing insane, This is Money that could have been put towards Flight Time,
and or an ENTIRELY seperate Rating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, explain how that is extreme. I went to the cheapest school around and I spent around that much. Paying instructors to ride around isn't exactly inexpensive.

 

[Tired]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Remember on a one hour flight you are only paying for twelve minutes before and after the flight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a hell of a lot of money for only 12 minutes or even 24 for that matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is that? On a on hour flight you pay for 1.0 brief time for the time spent with the instructor during the flight, and .4 for the pre and post brief. That .4 = 24 minutes, or 12 minutes before and after each flight. Are you a CFI? I am and that doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly, the biggest whiner here about this policy is FLDiver, who never really attended the school.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tired, you will really fit into upper level management very well. You, like the Pan Am admin., do not listen to a thing the students (customers) have to say. Tired, your name is appropriate, when you are tired, your brain shuts down and by that ignorant statement (above) you have obviously NOT read my previous posts that have been going on for well over a year. If you had indeed read my posts you will see that I DID in fact attend Pan Am at the FPR facility. It seems to me that the DVT facility is run somewhat differently than the FPR facility, but I really can't say because I have never been to the DVT facility, therefore I do not comment on it. Have you been to the FPR facility???

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I know you. You are the guy that signed up, and then had some lame reason for not showing up. Then you didn't follow the written procedure for not showing up. Pan Am held up their end of the contract....you didn't. When I said you never really went to the school I meant that as far as I know you didn't take that many flights there, meaning you couldn't have built up a large amount of brief time to complain about. Hey, at least I started spelling your name correctly. BTW, I've never been to FPR.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully you can agree that putting up with an inconvenient schedule does have benefits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but what about putting up with admin.and their arrogance, inflexible scheduling and accounting problems. Is it worth it??? I don't think so.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does that statment have to do with what my statement there was directed towards? If your going to bring up new complaints why don't you start a new post in this thread and explain them for everyone.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there are advantages to attending Pan Am. You’ll learn to fly in a nice facility in brand new aircraft

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but at a premium price. Why not get the exact same ratings elsewhere for considerably cheaper and less hassle with admin problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, same thing could be said about Ridde, Flightsafety, GTA, and so on. All those schools will charge you same for ratings you can get for a third of the cost somewhere else.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
be held to high standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

High standards or ridiculous and inflexible rules, designed to rob students of their loan money, which they have absolutely no control over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? What I was trying to say is that Pan Am will hold train you to high standards. I've flown and worked at other schools where the quality was much worse. Explain how high quality robs the students of loan money.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you become an instructor you’ll build time quickly, and you’ll get those precious multi-engine hours. Students will be assigned to you so you won’t have to wait behind the counter all day for potential students to come through the door.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is IF you become an instructor. It is popular information that the Pan Am admin has to like you in order to hire you. Or, you can be hired on (as per contract) but they dont have to give you any students. Why take that chance?

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you taking about. Everyone that I know that got their MEI has become a instructor, and they are getting students. Also, this is with no year-long waiting list, unlike some other schools.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The ACE program , I don’t know much about it (panampilot, help here?), but people seem to be getting hired with pretty low time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, the good ole ACE program. Tired, if you are an instructor at Pan Am, why don't you know about this program?? Just curious is all. Everyone knows this is a cash cow for Pan Am. While the jury is still out about if it is truley worth the 7K you spend for nonloggable time, any experience is good experience...agreed?? However, Pan Am has moved this program to a much earlier stage in a students career program. Then Pan Am boasts that ALL the new hires are ACE grads. Well, this makes a hell of a lot of sense. Since Pan Am forces students to take the ACE program early (strictly for profit), of course ALL of thier newly hired grads will be ACE grads...its like saying that all new hires are also Private Pilots. Get the gist??

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm...before blasting me for not reading all your posts on the board maybe you should go back and read mine. Since you didn't I'll spell it out for you here. I did not take the ACE program. I did not do any training at Pan Am. Now go and hold yourself to the standards you hold me to.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I’d have to say that Pan Am students and instructors have it pretty good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will agree with you here. Again, pretty, new, air conditioned aircraft (while nice)come at an extreme cost to the student. Why pay for all of the mumbo jumbo when you can get the same ratings, the same quality training and with less hassle, less cost, and a lot of times, faster than you can at Pan Am? In reality, all you are paying for at Pan Am is a name.
Prospective students, protect your assets. Go to a place where YOU and YOU alone control your money and schedule. Go to a place that values you as a customer and appreciates your business. Learn a lesson from the ATA students, don't place all of your eggs in one basket, you never know who is next to go belly up and take your money with them. The bank could care less, as long as YOU pay your monthly loan payment. Especially in this economy, you have to protect yourself and your assets. One of the best ways to do this is NOT to attend Pan Am. I am done for now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, when you enrolled you weren't aware that you were going to pay a premium? To some people what Pan Am offeres if worthwhile, and to you it isn't. Nothing wrong with that, that is why there are other schools.

 

[panampilot]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[ QUOTE ]
What are you taking about. Everyone that I know that got their MEI has become a instructor, and they are getting students. Also, this is with no year-long waiting list, unlike some other schools.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll back up Tired on this one. Pan Am has never had a problem of not having enough students for instructors. In fact we were at such a shortage at one point that we allowed students start instructing with just their intial CFI and they finished up the program on the side. If you want to have a job right after finishing up and not waiting around, there is no better place than Pan Am.

 

[dakovich]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

hey turk, has panam lowered the tuition?? when i first started the cost was about $55,000, a few months later though they raised their prices and the total from beginning to end was more near $57,500. just wondering if thing have changed and they actually lowered cost in some way.

by the way, congrats on doing so well with your training...but when i was there, what you have accomplished was very very rare. you should be very proud of yourself, you've obviously been working very hard. keep it up

 

[pure_IMC]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll back up Tired on this one. Pan Am has never had a problem of not having enough students for instructors. In fact we were at such a shortage at one point that we allowed students start instructing with just their intial CFI and they finished up the program on the side. If you want to have a job right after finishing up and not waiting around, there is no better place than Pan Am.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well I dont know about dvt, but fpr is on a waitlist. Probably for at least a year.

 

[Tired]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[ QUOTE ]
Well I dont know about dvt, but fpr is on a waitlist. Probably for at least a year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it was bound to happen. Although we haven't hit bottom yet I hope it happens soon.

 

[pure_IMC]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Hope what happens soon?

 

[Billybob]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Tired: We have a perfect safety record? In how many years of operation?!! Two or three maybe? Please, go back to statistics 101 and look up the phrase "valid comparison". Time will tell how the safety record plays. Also, if you look at similar learning institutions (let's say graduate schools) now and throughout history you will note that students are alloted short mental breaks (ie, they don't do school 7 days a week). Why? Because it's a proven fact that learning diminishes without a certain amount of alleviation from the focus of the curriculum. In other words, learning goes downhill and thus the quality does as well. In the end, students may end up paying more by repeating lessons because the learning dynamic is shot. And as for Pan Am being the best place for instructor hours, why don't you ask the last group of CFI's who were hired in December how many students they have? I'll tell you the answer:ZERO. The list is getting longer with a potential wait (from what I was told) from eigth months to a year. Now that's a long time to sit on your logbook.

 

[panampilot]

Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[ QUOTE ]
And as for Pan Am being the best place for instructor hours, why don't you ask the last group of CFI's who were hired in December how many students they have? I'll tell you the answer:ZERO. The list is getting longer with a potential wait (from what I was told) from eigth months to a year. Now that's a long time to sit on your logbook.

[/ QUOTE ]

Make sure you specify between FPR and DVT because that is certainly not the case here in Phoenix. Because if you were TOLD that was the case here in Phoenix then you heard wrong.