What would you do?

[Airdale]

Here's a scenario. I'm putting this up for discussion because I am always learning everyday from the Captains I fly with. You know, as bad as Colgan can treat their pilots some times, if management really spend a day following around a flight crew, they would feel really bad because we've got some really awesome Captains and great pilots.

That being said, here's a scenario in which I always thought was a gray area in my head, but thanks to asking questions and having a good discussion with my Captain this month, I have a much clearer picture.


You are 8 miles out, 3,000' and on a vector to intercept the localizer on the BOS ILS 4R approach. You have been cleared for the approach. Tower reports TDZE RVR1800 as you are cleared for the approach. You intercept the localizer and begin configuring. Now you are 6 miles out, on localizer and on glideslope. Just prior to crossing the outer marker, or FAF as published on the plate, tower reports TDZE RVR1200. You need RVR1800 for the approach. Your about 1900-2000' on the approach, I believe the GS altitude at the marker is something like 1784.

Do you continue or terminate the approach?

- You're established on the Loc andGlideslope
- You're 1 mile from the the published FAF/GS intercept altitude



Discuss!

 

[mikecweb]

Not sure about 121 but 135 you can't cross the fix unless you got the minimums.

 

[FlyChicaga]

If you are 1 mile from the glideslope intercept altitude (which likely is not 1784'), then you must discontinue the approach. However, it sounds like you intercepted the glideslope at the glideslope intercept altitude, since you said you are between 1900' and 2000' and are descending. If you are below the glideslope intercept altitude (which is NOT necessarily the outer marker) then you can continue.

That is the book answer.

 

[mnixon]

Don't reply to tower until your inside the marker.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Don't reply to tower until your inside the marker.

LOL Freight days so true. I would discontinue the approach and be legal because youre only making extra money. Unless you are pas the FAF you don't continue that approach(ops specs pending). Its all about the extra tenth! You don't get paid extra to be a cowboy in 121.

 

[jtrain609]

Don't reply to tower until your inside the marker.

Not exactly. You respond with "Say again for Colgan XXXX" until you're below the FAF incept altitude. You never heard them until you're legal for the approach eh?

At my company we'd have (hopefully) briefed the approach as a Cat II to begin with (if the runway has Cat II capability) so it wouldn't be an issue and we could continue as a monitored approach in either situation.

If we hadn't briefed it like that, or the runway was only a Cat. I runway then I'd be discontinuing the approach unless I had a real compelling reason to get the plane on the ground NOW.

 

[Bumblebee]

Not exactly. You respond with "Say again for Colgan XXXX" until you're below the FAF incept altitude. You never heard them until you're legal for the approach eh?


If we hadn't briefed it like that, or the runway was only a Cat. I runway then I'd be discontinuing the approach unless I had a real compelling reason to get the plane on the ground NOW.

all good unless something goes wrong and they play the recording

the correct response

 

[jtrain609]

all good unless something goes wrong and they play the recording

the correct response

What's the recording gonna prove? That you couldn't hear their transmission?

(You're right Dale, and said practice would be 100% unsafe and unethical, but what could the feds prove? That you didn't hear what they said?)

 

[Bumblebee]

What's the recording gonna prove? That you couldn't hear their transmission?

If the tower transmissions were on the recorder clearly, and then the same when you "actually " heard it, then that could give the investigators cause to get you answering more questions than you would would want . . . that's all my young brother

 

[jtrain609]

If the tower transmissions were on the recorder clearly, and then the same when you "actually " heard it, then that could give the investigators cause to get you answering more questions than you would would want . . . that's all my young brother

Hey I ain't gonna disagree with you too much, but I know there have been situations where the controller was probably clear as a bell, but with all these bells and whistles going off in the airplane sometimes I legitly don't hear what the controllers are saying and have to ask them to repeat themselves.

I guess you'd need to hear something in the background to play that game eh?

 

[USMC-SSGT]

I dont believe the beech can do a cat II and wouldnt have been briefed

as I read it providing you are outside the FAF and have not intercepted the glideslope at the published altitude than you need to go missed....is the legal answer

but what jtrain said

 

[Snuggle]

"BLOCKED"

 

[ppragman]

Not sure about 121 but 135 you can't cross the fix unless you got the minimums.

True dat, however....

"Somewherville Tower, XXX 1435, didn't catch your last transmission, would you like a ride report?"

 

[coa787]

Not sure about 121 but 135 you can't cross the fix unless you got the minimums.

Does '121' refer to regional airlines and '135' refer to major airlines?

 

[WalterSobchak]

Does '121' refer to regional airlines and '135' refer to major airlines?

No. 2 different rules of operation.

 

[coa787]

No. 2 different rules of operation.

So, do those differ between regional and major airlines?

 

[mrivc211]

I know this ain't the most popular answer buuuuut. If its below mins, I ain't gonna try it.

two reasons, #1 its illegal.

#2 why should I risk my life for $90,000/yr? I mean yeah i do it everyday, but to take an extra risk that I dont have too? No thanks. Not gonna do it. If its not legal, tough. We ain't gettin in. Not to mention grandmas life in the back.

Its kinda like that security guard who works at the bank. makes $9/hr. If they hold the place up, you think he's gonna be a hero for $9/hr?

LOL.

 

[jtrain609]

So, do those differ between regional and major airlines?

Part 121 are the rules ALL airlines operate under, and part 135 are the rules that charter/ small freight companies operate under.

 

[EDUC8-or]

I know this ain't the most popular answer buuuuut. If its below mins, I ain't gonna try it.

two reasons, #1 its illegal.

#2 why should I risk my life for $90,000/yr? I mean yeah i do it everyday, but to take an extra risk that I dont have too? No thanks. Not gonna do it. If its not legal, tough. We ain't gettin in. Not to mention grandmas life in the back.

Its kinda like that security guard who works at the bank. makes $9/hr. If they hold the place up, you think he's gonna be a hero for $9/hr?

LOL.

I don't know why you think that answer wouldn't be popular. If there's one thing this job has taught me, it's to be conservative. There's nothing I dislike more than flying with a "Cowboy" or someone who tries to bend the rules. There's a reason why there are published mins, what's the popular saying? Something like the FAR's are written in blood?

 

[Bumblebee]

I know this ain't the most popular answer buuuuut. If its below mins, I ain't gonna try it.

two reasons, #1 its illegal.

#2 why should I risk my life for $90,000/yr? I mean yeah i do it everyday, but to take an extra risk that I dont have too? No thanks. Not gonna do it. If its not legal, tough. We ain't gettin in. Not to mention grandmas life in the back.

Its kinda like that security guard who works at the bank. makes $9/hr. If they hold the place up, you think he's gonna be a hero for $9/hr?

LOL.

I don't know why you think that answer wouldn't be popular. If there's one thing this job has taught me, it's to be conservative. There's nothing I dislike more than flying with a "Cowboy" or someone who tries to bend the rules. There's a reason why there are published mins, what's the popular saying? Something like the FAR's are written in blood?

:yeahthat: